Toonbots message board: New brainchild

gopher Fri Oct 1 12:54:02 2004 Re: New brainchild > So along with the burst of episodic creativity, it appears that my > software-design functionality is also coming back online, and yes, I've > missed it. I have a new plan. I call it the "Stochastic Collaborative > Ultimate Metacartooning Framework", or SCUMF. If I actually bring it > off (and I'm feeling inexplicably prolific of late, probably because I'm > outside the US *and* earning money, a combination which always helps my > emotional state) then I think you're going to like it. A lot. A whole lot. Care to explain this plan of yours in a bit more detail than the name? I'm guessing that the "stochastic" portion implies some sort of toon-creating intelligence, though I don't know what statistics would be the basis. Perhaps that's where the collaborative part comes in? Machine-generated toon evolution through jihad feedback? Or all all the words just there to make the acronym sound vaguely like the old Lucasfilm games engine?

Michael Fri Oct 1 20:09:12 2004 Re: New brainchild > Care to explain this plan of yours in a bit more detail than the name? Not until I'm reasonably sure I'll be able to actually build the thing in a reasonable timeframe. I'm going for coy and tantalizing here. And probably just coming across as a jerk, like with the wolverines. > Machine-generated toon evolution through jihad feedback? Hmm. Couuuuld beeeee.... Oh, OK, you twisted my arm. I'll toss you a few cryptic notions. 1. Workflow-based system for creation and publishing of toons (collaborative online access to the Toon-o-Matic.) 2. Facilities to create new toons from old ones in three ways: (1) manual derivation, i.e. "give me a copy of that toon to edit and improve", (2) random mutator, i.e. "give me a copy of that toon with some text replaced with the CNN headlines from today" or "give me a copy of that toon with some characters replaced at random" or the old standby "run the text of that toon through Babelfish a few times", (3) recombination of existing toons. The latter two categories are stochastic, and there could be any arbitrary number of random agents to modify or originate toons in various ways. Note: the random agents have an obvious name. Maybe you can think of what I want to call them. 3. Tournament system for humor value (like the optometrist: which is funnier, A or B? A or B?) Based on this system, plus a similarity metric for any one person, the system ought to be able to (1) guess your taste and (2) guess the "common public taste". A second metric will probably need to be applied to identify offensiveness. Offensive and funny aren't mutually exclusive, except for some people. 4. Character editor. Want to create your own Toonbots character? This would do that. Maybe some kind of character use permissions setup, so people couldn't use your characters without permission. Exception always to be made for me and the bots. 5. Story arc editor -- chronically ordered groups of episodes. Otherwise every episode would stand on its own, which isn't perfect. Story arcs could also be used to provide a platform for critical articles. 6. Integrated forums -- commentary on specific episodes/arcs or on characters. I think I can probably build a lot of this system with the code I've got on hand in a couple of days (meaning, a lot more than that in reality, a place I've heard of and plan to visit someday). It would rock, and it would be pretty much unique as far as I can tell, even four years (!) after I originally wrote the Toon-o-Matic, and five after I started my workflow toolkit. It would relieve me of the burden of having to actually come up with material, instead allowing me to come up with meta-material, which is more fun if there's adulation involved. And it would finally, finally, finally justify the name "Toonbots." Which is, of course, what I always wanted to do in the first place. The actual strip is a byproduct. Like hot dogs. Mmm. Hot dogs. I'm going to go have supper now. Here's what I'd like to propose. If and when I actually start building this, which I'd like to be this month since we're coming up on the four-year anniversary of this little corner of the Net, I'd like all of the core jihad to help me test it, by generating, you know, toons. I need moral support to pull this off, because as Emsworth can well attest, I can become distracted even from the most interesting of projects for extremely extended periods of time, given the realities of my life. You realize, of course, that if this works halfway decently, we may very well be a brief Internet street-cred supernova. So there's karma in it for you all. Who's with me?

Michael Sat Oct 2 00:01:18 2004 ... > Who's with me? *cricket* *cricket*

Napenguin Sat Oct 2 01:47:08 2004 Re: ... > *cricket* *cricket* *CICADABUZZOFDOOM!* *CICADABUZZOFDOOM!*

Michael Sat Oct 2 08:35:17 2004 Re: ... > *CICADABUZZOFDOOM!* *CICADABUZZOFDOOM!* Oh, yeah, you were in B-town for the cicada bash. I got some polymer casting resin at Hobby Lobby and made preserved about a dozen cicadas for posterity. Want one? I'm looking forward to 2021!

Napenguin Mon Oct 11 18:51:21 2004 Re: ... > Oh, yeah, you were in B-town for the cicada bash. I got some polymer > casting resin at Hobby Lobby and made preserved about a dozen cicadas for > posterity. Want one? I want one! What need I bribe you with for it?

Michael Mon Oct 11 20:24:36 2004 Re: ... > I want one! What need I bribe you with for it? No need for a bribe, I made them for people I like who think cicadas are cool, and you qualify on the first and, it would appear, the second point as well. Authentic Bloomington brood-X, mostly picked up dead over on Pete Ellis Drive. Stupidly, I didn't get the polymer casting resin until basically the last day there were any cicadas, or at least any I could find -- I still heard some on campus for a day or two afterwards, but couldn't find any. So I've only got about ten, and a gallon of polymer casting resin going unused. D'oh. :-) Ah well, there's always 2021! Or I guess I could just travel around North America from year to year sampling the different broods. All you need to do is go to the house (1029 S. Dunn, limestone veneer house on the northeast of the corner of Dunn and Davis, close to Bryan Park) and tell Nora and Tamás that you want one of the cicadas. They were in the kitchen window when I left (the cicadas, not Nora and Tamás), but they've probably packed them away somewhere. That, or I already packed them away, in which case I have no fricking idea where they are, and you'll have to wait until December and we're in town visiting and I can look for them. I'll tell them you'll be coming. (Nora and Tamás, not the cicadas. The cicadas are pretty much beyond caring at this point.) OK, I just emailed them you'll be coming by for one.

Napenguin Thu Oct 14 00:39:44 2004 Re: ... > I'll tell them you'll be coming. (Nora and Tamás, not the cicadas. The > cicadas are pretty much beyond caring at this point.) OK, I just emailed > them you'll be coming by for one. YOU REALLY SHOULD CONSIDER THE CICADAS' FEELINGS, YOU KNOW I shall have to see about getting driven over there sometime this week!

Michael Thu Oct 14 16:20:37 2004 Re: ... > YOU REALLY SHOULD CONSIDER THE CICADAS' FEELINGS, YOU KNOW Their metabolic processes have stopped. They are dead cicadas. If not when I collected them, then most certainly after being immersed in slowly solidifying, very hot polymer. > I shall have to see about getting driven over there sometime this week! The cicadas are looking forward to it, I'm sure.

Emsworth Sat Oct 2 01:59:54 2004 Re: ... > *cricket* *cricket* ::wolverines eat crickets:: And that, from the sound of it, when and if this impressive system comes into being (and forgive me for reigning in my excitement, as I do not want to create vain hopes in my mind again), it sounds as if you've left out the biggest benefit, in terms of creating characters. Wolverines! Wolverines of all ages, sizes, limited only by the imagination and possibly technical abilities of the user, and any bugs inherent in the system. (Would any additional drawing capabilities for the Toon-O-Matic be involved, or has that more or less been abandoned by now, and would it merely distract from this greater goal, so to speak)? >5. Story arc editor -- chronically ordered groups of episodes. Otherwise every >episode would stand on its own, which isn't perfect. Story arcs could also be >used to provide a platform for critical articles. When you say "critical articles," do you mean from the Jihad, as in analytical feedback as once flourished in the glory days of the Toon, or from outside sources like Comixpedia or Webcomics Examiner? (Oddly enough, a recent post on Toonbots, in a thread about experimental webcomics, netted me an invitation to write for the thing, which I might very well do, when other projects leave me the time. Just finished another 15 500 word entries for an upcoming book on animated features). Either way, I like the idea. >6. Integrated forums -- commentary on specific episodes/arcs or on characters. Now this one, I'm not so sure about. Perhaps it's merely the phrasing, but if this is to be a result of the strips, a general automatically categorized thing or whatnot, that sounds almost like the deathknell of the jihad. That is to say, although I'm almost surprised to find myself expressing such a thought, as admittedly the overly large, overly chaotic, overly heated online communites have always unnerved me, it sounds as if it might be providing too much structure, limiting creativity, etc. On the other hand, on the off chance that this new system attracts new, more casual readers, it would be convenient and useful. Again, forgive me for wanting to take a "wait and see" approach (although it does sound like you've thought things out and planned ahead to a greater extent), in light of so many other unfulfilled promises (unused guest strips, no gopher in the toon, etc.) However, as always, while grad school preparations and whatnot will to some extent have to come first, I will certainly do my humble best to assist, for the honor of the Jihad and glory of the Bot. Sidenote: Again, depending on how much is done in the next few days and what proves practical, etc., what say ye to perhaps mentioning this to the likes of BoxJam and Burke and other fairly "Cool Enough" toonists who may have some valuable input in this, or others with technical expertise, or should this be an "active jihad only" thing?

Michael Sat Oct 2 08:50:04 2004 Re: ... > ::wolverines eat crickets:: My lovely crickets! All gone! > forgive me for reigning in my excitement Forgiven. In advance. > Wolverines! Wolverines of all ages, sizes, limited only by the imagination > and possibly technical abilities of the user, and any bugs inherent in the > system. Right. That's one I thought you'd like. > (Would any additional drawing capabilities for the Toon-O-Matic be > involved, or has that more or less been abandoned by now, and would it > merely distract from this greater goal, so to speak)? I see it as orthogonal. That is to say, I'm still *very* interested in extending the Toon-o-Matic, but it wouldn't really affect the way this system would work. That's why I call it a framework -- what you mount in it is up to you, so to speak. > When you say "critical articles," do you mean from the Jihad, as > in analytical feedback as once flourished in the glory days of the Toon, > or from outside sources like Comixpedia or Webcomics Examiner? From the Jihad. That is, if you want to select a group of toons, you can do so, and attach arbitrary text to them. So you can build a portfolio, or a list of toons with Mao in them. One episode could belong to different arcs. You could get quite creative with the arcs alone, actually... Doesn't that sound fun? Sure it does. > that sounds almost like the deathknell of > the jihad. That is to say, although I'm almost surprised to find myself > expressing such a thought, as admittedly the overly large, overly chaotic, > overly heated online communites have always unnerved me, it sounds as if > it might be providing too much structure, limiting creativity, etc. Hmm. I see what you mean. But on the other hand, for effective collaboration to be a possibility, you kinda need to have local forums for particular objects in the system. There could always be a central thread repository which linked to the objects, instead of having to find the threads by going to the objects. And you could always start a general thread which wasn't associated with an object. But I agree with you. The current forum layout is unstructured enough that you can do anything. > On the other hand, on the off chance that this new system attracts new, > more casual readers, it would be convenient and useful. I suspect that it will attract a huge number of readers. They won't have to deal with my peculiar humor or with the high in-joke bar of most current episodes. And they can write their own toons. Even that simple little write-your-own-toon site a couple of years ago (I'm not good with details like names, you know) was rather popular for a while. And there could always be a simple template to allow an easy entree into metacartooning. > Again, forgive me for wanting to take a "wait and see" approach It's only sane. > in light of so many other unfulfilled promises It's not a promise if I don't get paid. > However, as always, > while grad school preparations and whatnot will to some extent have to > come first, I will certainly do my humble best to assist, for the honor of > the Jihad and glory of the Bot. Of course you will. You won't be able to stay away, once anything at all is working. And you know it. > in the next few days Now that's really unlikely. Unless lightning strikes, always a possibility. > what proves practical, etc., what say ye to perhaps mentioning this to the > likes of BoxJam and Burke and other fairly "Cool Enough" > toonists who may have some valuable input in this, or others with > technical expertise, or should this be an "active jihad only" > thing? Active jihad only until there's something working and reasonably stable. Then we'll go to a limited beta group.

Jenn Sat Oct 2 11:57:03 2004 I *am* listening... Just want you all to know...I did read this, per the exortation from the Jihad mailing list. I just have nothing to say because I don't understand these big computer/comic theory words. (Yes, yes...when did that ever stop me before...I know. :) ) I never even really understood what was going on behind the scenes with the old toonbots. I just thought it was funny. But I didn't want you to think I didn't come and read it.

Emsworth Sat Oct 2 12:28:39 2004 Re: I *am* listening... > But I didn't want you to think I didn't come and read it. Awww, how touching. Your loyalty to the Jihad shall not go unrewarded, Jenn. Wolverine sketches shall be dispatched to your abode in the near future.

Jenn Mon Oct 4 13:34:38 2004 Re: I *am* listening... > Awww, how touching. Your loyalty to the Jihad shall not go unrewarded, > Jenn. Wolverine sketches shall be dispatched to your abode in the near > future. Yay! I was gonna whine about how if Michael likes me, where's my cookie? But this is even better! Thanks!

Michael Sat Oct 2 19:24:02 2004 Re: I *am* listening... > I never even really understood what was going on behind the scenes with > the old toonbots. I just thought it was funny. Gawrsh. I like you, Jenn. What goes on behind the scenes is really pretty simple. I write the toon in XML, then print it out and burn it with incense in a pentagram I have drawn in chalk on the rooftop terrace. (I used to have to use the basement floor, and the smoke was kind of nasty.) The vibrations in the ether induced by this process are refracted through a number of prisms I have carefully carved and ground in the shape of Soviet-era statuary and Easter Island heads, and the beam is focussed on a sheet of hammered titanium and fixed with a light spray of cranberry juice. I scan the resulting image, write the blurb, and post it. Very simple, really.

Chris Sat Oct 2 19:34:06 2004 Re: I *am* listening... > and Easter Island heads A BRIEF INTERLUDE: MAO AND THE MOAI (IN MAUI?) Mao: Hey, Fred. Moai: ... Mao: Hey, Fred? Moai: ... Mao: Heeeeyy..... Fred? Moai: ... Moai 2: ... Mao: You keep out of this! (NEXT: MAU MAUS!)

Michael Sat Oct 2 20:59:09 2004 See? See? Don't you wish the SCUMF was already running? (Good punchline!)

Jenn Mon Oct 4 13:33:17 2004 The real reason Florida keeps getting spanked Oooooh. I think I see what's happening now. Didn't you read the warning label on the back of the cranberry juice bottle? I know it's small, but I'm pretty sure it says something about 'combining with Cuba Libres and titanium may cause atmospheric disturbances up to and including gale force winds and hurricanes'.

mouse Wed Oct 6 17:44:36 2004 Re: The real reason Florida keeps getting spanked > Oooooh. I think I see what's happening now. > Didn't you read the warning label on the back of the cranberry juice > bottle? I know it's small, but I'm pretty sure it says something about > 'combining with Cuba Libres and titanium may cause atmospheric > disturbances up to and including gale force winds and hurricanes'. yeah, he did. why do you think he's using his magic mirror dealies to send them up to florida?

mouse Wed Oct 6 17:41:38 2004 Re: ... > They won't have > to deal with my peculiar humor but....but.....that's why i _come_ here!

Michael Fri Oct 8 14:07:05 2004 Re: ... > but....but.....that's why i _come_ here! Toonbots won't be going away (you'd never notice it if it did anyway, since it could just be a slightly longer hiatus) but the SCUMF will allow a great deal more activity. Think of it as orthogonal to Toonbottery proper.

mouse Sat Oct 9 16:57:04 2004 Re: ... > Toonbots won't be going away (you'd never notice it if it did anyway, > since it could just be a slightly longer hiatus) but the SCUMF will allow > a great deal more activity. Think of it as orthogonal to Toonbottery > proper. cool! ....do we get to set the angle of incidence, as well?

Michael Sat Oct 9 18:51:02 2004 Re: ... > ....do we get to set the angle of incidence, as well? I'm pretty sure that's emergent.

gopher Sat Oct 2 11:53:45 2004 Re: ... > Now this one, I'm not so sure about. Perhaps it's merely the phrasing, but > if this is to be a result of the strips, a general automatically > categorized thing or whatnot, that sounds almost like the deathknell of > the jihad. That is to say, although I'm almost surprised to find myself > expressing such a thought, as admittedly the overly large, overly chaotic, > overly heated online communites have always unnerved me, it sounds as if > it might be providing too much structure, limiting creativity, etc. > On the other hand, on the off chance that this new system attracts new, > more casual readers, it would be convenient and useful. Well, clearly the cool people wouldn't use the goofy new forums.

Emsworth Sat Oct 2 12:32:43 2004 Re: ... > Well, clearly the cool people wouldn't use the goofy new forums. I was under the impression that the new integrated forums would replace this dear old thing, with all the attendant memories. However, if there's a *choice* (just like BoxJam has a Keen forum and an Altbrand forum, and the cool people prefer the Altbrand one), then the sanctity of our carefully established, individualistic meta-societal structure and hierarchy will thus be preserved, free to continue on its merrily eccentric path.

Michael Sat Oct 2 19:17:21 2004 Re: ... > I was under the impression that the new integrated forums would replace > this dear old thing, with all the attendant memories. Oh, no, I never throw anything away. It might *break* someday (probably not) and it would take a few months to get around to fixing it, but I won't just toss it out.

mouse Wed Oct 6 17:40:25 2004 Re: ... > *cricket* *cricket* can i still join? i've been out of town...

spinclad Thu Oct 7 02:40:33 2004 Re: ... > can i still join? i've been out of town... and i've been .. well, in town, but delayed on my fortnightly comical rounds. missed not only moai but delicious hints of SCUMF!

Michael Fri Oct 8 14:05:35 2004 Re: ... > can i still join? Of course -- as soon as I actually start something, you all will be the first to know. I just finished 30,000 words of translation involving manganese poisonings (truly something I never want to have, sounds worse than strep given that it's permanent nerve damage) and as soon as I mop up some other stuff, we'll see. Ditto spinclad, of course. In fact, all titled jihadiin who care to participate will have the doors flung wide and festive hats awaiting.

gopher Fri Oct 8 22:50:32 2004 Re: ... > Of course -- as soon as I actually start something, you all will be the > first to know. I just finished 30,000 words of translation involving > manganese poisonings (truly something I never want to have, sounds worse > than strep given that it's permanent nerve damage) and as soon as I mop up > some other stuff, we'll see. Well, remember, strep can also be pretty bad. The streptococcus bacteria is also that flesh-eating one, which is just creepy. > Ditto spinclad, of course. In fact, all titled jihadiin who care to > participate will have the doors flung wide and festive hats awaiting. Can I have an option for a big foam #1 hand, instead?

Michael Sat Oct 9 14:01:07 2004 Re: ... > Well, remember, strep can also be pretty bad. The streptococcus bacteria > is also that flesh-eating one, which is just creepy. Yeah, I was reading all about it while it did its damndest to digest my throat while I was still using it. Fortunately, I seem to be forgetting how much it hurt. Did I mention it really hurt? But nerve damage is forever. Strep goes down screaming when you shovel penicillin on it (even if it kicks you in the balls a couple of times before it leaves), but manganese poisoning tightens up all the muscles in your legs and arms and face and throat because the balancing suppressive nerve impulses are no longer generated, and then it never, ever gets better for the rest of your life. You can't walk or talk and you have a tendency to grimace when people look at you because all the muscles overreact at the slightest provocation. The first you know about it is often because you suddenly start falling over backwards ten times a day because you can't lift your toes. It's fricking weird stuff. I'm glad I'm done with that translation. > Can I have an option for a big foam #1 hand, instead? Sure.

mouse Sat Oct 9 16:54:01 2004 Re: ... > It's fricking weird stuff. I'm glad I'm done with that translation. now you just have to wait until the nightmares go away.... ummm...how _much_ manganese does it take, do you know? just remembered i use that sometimes as a glaze colorant.... > Sure. no! make him wear a hat! or at least, wear the big foam hand on his head...

Michael Sat Oct 9 19:02:36 2004 Re: ... > ummm...how _much_ manganese does it take, do you know? just remembered i > use that sometimes as a glaze colorant.... It's only some compounds of manganese (manganese dioxide, I think), it's only from dust inhaled, it takes a whole lot, and not everybody actually is susceptible. In Germany there were like 30 cases total, ever, even before the use of filtration systems in the brownstone mills (where nearly all the cases occurred). And this was all in the nineteenth century, by the way. It's not like it's easy to get. Just really nasty once you manage to. > no! make him wear a hat! > or at least, wear the big foam hand on his head... I think that's reasonable, yes.

mouse Sat Oct 9 16:49:31 2004 Re: ... > Ditto spinclad, of course. In fact, all titled jihadiin who care to > participate will have the doors flung wide and festive hats awaiting. oooo- hats!

spinclad Thu Oct 7 02:30:54 2004 Re: New brainchild > 2. .. "give me a copy of that toon with some characters replaced at > random" or the old standby "run the text of that toon through > Babelfish a few times", (3) recombination of existing toons. The > latter two categories are stochastic, and there could be any arbitrary > number of random agents to modify or originate toons in various ways. > Note: the random agents have an obvious name. Maybe you can think of what > I want to call them. :: Gwendolyn tosses Babelfish in air a few times -- how many is hard to count, as divers parts traject diversely. Attila would prefer recombining wolverines, but considers this a _res in cubiculo_. > 6. Integrated forums -- commentary on specific episodes/arcs or on characters. Mmm.. thinking about integrating in the other direction, actually. Thread structure expresses evolution/arc relations... > And it would finally, finally, finally > justify the name "Toonbots." Which is, of course, what I always > wanted to do in the first place. The actual strip is a byproduct. Like hot > dogs. Mmm. Hot dogs. I'm going to go have supper now. :: Toothsomely devour hot dogs, supper, table ... > You realize, of course, that if this works halfway decently, we may very > well be a brief Internet street-cred supernova. So there's karma in it for > you all. > Who's with me? Me and my sporadic muse would like to play...

Michael Fri Oct 8 14:09:19 2004 Re: New brainchild > Mmm.. thinking about integrating in the other direction, actually. Thread > structure expresses evolution/arc relations... Yeah, me too. But since arcs would be manual, you could do this if you wanted to. Assuming a sufficiently large number of individual episodes, I could see some automated arc construction procedures and maybe a tournament evolution for arcs as well, which would be most entertaining. But it would have to wait until there were enough episodes to provide grist for that particular mill. > Me and my sporadic muse would like to play... I'm most definitely looking forward to that!

Chris Wed Oct 13 01:43:37 2004 Re: New brainchild > tournament evolution for arcs as well, which would be most entertaining. Toonbot Wars?