Toonbots message board: Sinbad -- 10 double-plus good!

mouse Fri Aug 1 16:08:23 2003 Re: Sinbad -- 10 double-plus good! i'll add it to my list of "movies i really, truly intend to see" - but at the rate i'm going, it'll have to wait for hbo. i think this weekend i finally have time to see "winged migration", which i have been wanting to see since i read the first reviews in, i think, april.....so you can see what the chances are. although good writing (to say nothing of a film that isn't II, III, IV.....MCCCLVII) is always something to try to catch.

Jenn Sat Aug 2 12:17:12 2003 The Unbearable Lightness of Comics One of the things that I really enjoy about this forum is the diversity of opinions. And here's mine: It's a cartoon. Plot holes are perfectly fine because your average 5 year old has lost interest about 12 minutes after the movie started and is now trying to get as much popcorn mashed down into his sister's hair as he possibly can. (that's /average/, mind you. Not your exemplary child, naturally. Whoever you are. :) ) Trite and painful dialogue is fine because...well...kids have just mastered language at all, let alone witty banter. Haven't seen this movie. I really like cartoons. But not for plot or anything grownup like that. I would probably like it. Especially if there was singing. I like my cartoons to sing.

Emsworth Sat Aug 2 13:23:52 2003 Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Comics My dear Jenn, while I do see your point, I don't entirely agree with you. Particularly with a film like "Sinbad" which, by focusing its promotional campaign on the "name" voices ("Michelle Pfeiffer *is* Eris"), something which I doubt most five to eight (possibly even ten) year olds would care about or even recognize, appears to be attempting to reach children and adults. Besides, I've long been of the opinion that animation should not necessarily be a "kids only" medium, any more than comics are. Take "Dumbo," for example. A simple story which I adored as a child, with great charm, but which as an adult, still works, apart from the nostalgia factor. A clear structure which works fine for both kids and adults, and the pink elephants sequence (and the cause of it), the wordplay in the crow song, the clowns boorish party, etc. have a greater resonance now. Again, note that I enjoyed "Sinbad." I just doubt it will hold up as well to repeated viewings (and I mentioned the plot holes mainly because Michael is the one who usually rants about such things, and really it was the paper thin characterization of Proteus which bothered me more in the context than the plot holes, for I've seen enough Monogram Charlie Chans to be able to suspend disbelief in that regard, though I still note them.) > Haven't seen this movie. I really like cartoons. But not for plot or > anything grownup like that. I would probably like it. Especially if there > was singing. I like my cartoons to sing. No singing, apart from some lovely wordless choral vocalizations from the sirens. I'd try to catch it soon, Jenn, since it's been performing badly and already left several theaters.

mouse Sat Aug 2 15:04:07 2003 Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Comics i have to agree with emsworth here - i actually think it's a good thing to present kids with something a bit beyond their 'average' understanding - it gives them something to stretch for. i should note that i grew up with walt kelly's "pogo" and "the rocky and bullwinkle show", both of which often managed to be funny on two levels - a more basic, slapstick ones that kids would get, and a more intellectual one that adults found funny. as a child, i was aware that my parents were laughing at different things than i was, which aroused my curiousity, so i looked further. (of course, it has resulted in a certain personality warpage, from pogo especially - it seems like every time i reread that, i find something i didn't get before - so now i have this perpetual belief that there's a joke behind everything, _somewhere_. this is true only in politics.) of course, it's not necessary that something have to manage to be two things at once - it just needs a story and/or characterizations be such that you can appreciate different facets as you grow more mature. (this of course is easy for me to say, since i do not write stories for children, or even adults.) still, sounds like "sinbad" is worth seeing - maybe just not adding to one's dvd collection.

Michael Sat Aug 2 16:44:17 2003 Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Comics > i have to agree with emsworth here You all know my position, which is that animation is just as legitimate an art form as any other medium. In the 70's it nearly died due to the inexplicable relegation to "kid stuff" -- you think the classic cartoons were made for kids? No, they were warm-up acts for the movies. Cartoons were made for adults; the fact that kids like slapstick, too, doesn't mean adults don't. Sinbad was a good movie for adults -- and the assumption of stock icons in lieu of characterization is fine by me. I don't *care* about Sinbad and Proteus' early friendship, except insofar as alluded to in the movie itself. Nor do I care about Sinbad's sudden appearance -- it doesn't matter one little bit. The point is, he returns. How he returns is just completely immaterial, and the surprise entrance is what makes that scene work in the first place: he's Sinbad, he does seven impossible things before breakfast, after all. He just *does* it. It would detract from the magic of the Sinbad character to explain it. In other words: the adventures on the way back are left as an exercise for the reader. That was one of the things I actually *liked* about the writing. As I say, the quotable quotes were basically filtered out for me, either by the translation into Hungarian, which may well have improved on the original writing, or by my imperfect understanding of what I was hearing. The added effort of understanding the dialog, and the ensuing lively debate in my left hemisphere about what this or that turn of phrase might have meant, allows my right hemisphere to groove on the entirely excellent visuals, and ends up giving me an all-around better movie experience for *some* movies. (For most, it just leaves my right hemisphere to get bored and fall asleep, but if there *are* good visuals, it's much improved.) > - i actually think it's a good thing to > present kids with something a bit beyond their 'average' understanding - Yes, and then there's that aspect. Kids can't learn if they're not pushing the envelope. My daughter liked Sinbad in particular for two things: it was damn good, and the female lead was an actual character instead of simply a love interest, and saved all their cojones in the sirens scene. > i should note that i grew up with > walt kelly's "pogo" This explains a lot, mouse. America would still be a democracy if Walt Kelly were still alive. He knew how to poke good fun at the political process, and I suspect he created a lot of populists along the way.

mouse Sun Aug 3 16:05:10 2003 Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Comics > the female lead was an actual character instead of > simply a love interest, and saved all their cojones in the sirens scene. ok, that alone attracts my interest. i can't stand heroines who just stand around screaming while the bad guys are beating her boyfriend to a pulp - i much prefer the ones who brain said bad guys with the nearest lamp. and if she outthinks them - _waaaaaaaay_ better. > He knew how to poke good fun at the political process, and I > suspect he created a lot of populists along the way. yeah, i often wonder what he would do with today's politicians - he had a fair amount of fun with dick and spiro, and that was _before_ the watergate investigation. a lot of his classic stuff could pretty much be brought back unchanged - if you can get ahold of "uncle pogo so-so stories" check out "dog-gone".

Emsworth the Obscure Sun Aug 3 17:36:37 2003 Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Comics > ok, that alone attracts my interest. i can't stand heroines who just stand > around screaming while the bad guys are beating her boyfriend to a pulp - > i much prefer the ones who brain said bad guys with the nearest lamp. Ah, yet another admirer of Jael the wife of Heber.

mouse Mon Aug 4 15:19:41 2003 Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Comics > Ah, yet another admirer of Jael the wife of Heber. well, you gotta give her credit for gumption...and she was probably pretty good at home repairs, too.

spinclad Tue Aug 5 03:27:33 2003 Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Comics > > ok, that alone attracts my interest. i can't stand heroines who just stand > > around screaming while the bad guys are beating her boyfriend to a pulp - > > i much prefer the ones who brain said bad guys with the nearest lamp. > Ah, yet another admirer of Jael the wife of Heber. Me, I go for the bringing back said brains still uncracked within their shell for the delight and edification of nations, as did Judith bath Merari bin Uqs bin Yusuf bin Uziel, faithful woman of her man Manasses (pbuh). (after all who can resist having your own book named after you?)

Emsworth Fri Aug 1 20:10:38 2003 Re: Sinbad -- 10 double-plus good! While I thought "Sinbad" was reasonably enjoyable, it was hardly great. Perhaps because I didn't see it in Hungarian. While Dreamworks has indeed shown more experimental tendencies in their 2D animated features (of which "Sinbad" is the last for the foresseable future), I didn't feel the same way towards the writing as you did. Or rather, the writing in terms of overall character motivation and credibility, and not just a few effective scenes. I agree with you that the scene with Proteus and his father Dymas was wonderful. But overall, Proteus' relationship with Sinbad could have been developed a bit more, and the climax, when Proteus succumbs to the inevitable result of the cliches romantic subplot without blinking an eye, reinforced my opinion that he was little more than the cardboard noble friend, stepping aside for the hero in every situation, of a Victorian romance. But maybe the Hungarian translation smoothed over some plot holes (Sinbad's sudden return at the end), annoying quips ("Who's bad? Sinbad!"), and "banter" which is supposed to be witty, I gather from the vocal performances and animation, and yet lacks even the obnoxious wisecracks from earlier, and feels so much like filler. Still, further, somewhat more balanced comments, plus credits follow (from my latest APAToons entry, and waiting to be placed on Toonjunkies when Michael returns and has time to do anything at all to the site): SINBAD: LEGEND OF THE SEVEN SEAS (2003) Directors: Tim Johnson and Patrick Gilmore; Producers: Jeffrey Katzenberg, Mireilel Soria; Screenplay: John Logan; Music: Harry Gregson-Williams; Animation supervisor: Kristoff Serrand; Lead supervising animator: Jacob Hjort "Kobi" Jensen (Sinbad); Supervising animators:James Baxter, Simon Otto (Sinbad), William Salazar (Marina), Dan Wagner (Eris),Rodolphe Guenoden (Proteus), Bruce Ferriz (Kale), Fabio Lignini (Dymas), Sergei Kouchnerov (Spike the Dog), Simon Otto (Jin & Li), Steve Horrocks (Rat), Pres Romanillos (Sinbad's Crew), Fabrice Joubert (The Roc), Michael Spokas (Sea Monster), Michelle Cowart (Sirens); Animators: Kathy Zielinsky (Marina), Ken Morrisey, Xavier Riffault (Kale), Paul Newberry, Phil Young (Sinbad's Crew); Digital Effects Head: Doug Ikler; 2D Effects Head: Stephen Wood; Head of Story: Jennifer Yuh Nelson; Art Directors: Seth Engstrom, David James; Production designer: Raymond Zibach; Character designers: Carter Goodrich, Nicolas Marlet, Carlos Grangel, Tony Siruno; Background supervisor: Desmond Downes; Backgrounds: Armand Baltazar, Yoriko Ito, Chris Brock, Bill Kaufmann, Nathan Fowkes, Jorty Lam, Tianyi Han, Eric McLean, Wade Huntsman, Kevin Turcotte; Maquette sculptors: Shane Zalvin (Kale), Dusty Horner, Andrea Blasich Not a great deal to say about Sinbad, really. I saw it on the 4th, and enjoyed it for what it was, a popcorn movie. It was an improvement over Spirit, to my mind, if not in aspirations and concept, than in pacing and overall having some semblance of actual plot, even if that plot was poorly written. My biggest gripes were in the writing: underdeveloped relationship between Sinbad and Proteus; clichéd romance which I could accept in a 40's MGM musical but had trouble with here, and felt even more forced than in the musicals; Proteus being little more than the clichéd noble friend at every turn; poorly written "quips"; and a very nagging lack of explanation for Sinbad's escape from Tarterus. All that said, it was reasonably fun and enjoyable. A fairly good movie, though very far from great. The voice cast was moderately better than I expected, for while Brad Pitt's performance was hardly outstanding, at least he tried to give some life to a rakish character (who as written, is largely unsympathetic as well.) The set pieces involving the creature encounters worked best. The sirens sequence worked very well, due to both the music (score by Gregson-Williams, vocal chanting by Lisbeth Scott) and the animation. The highlight for me, though, was the encounter with the Roc. Here, for one of the few times in the movie, or in most animated films that include CGI monsters, the animators managed to give the creature a semblance of a personality. Perhaps it was just me, but I got the distinct impression that the bird was chasing the crew as much out of playfulness as out of mindless bestial rage, and the CG facial animation (if it was indeed entirely CG) was surprisingly expressive, lacking the stiffness seen in earlier films. Definitely an improvement, and one wonders if the Dreamworks crew might have continued to improve and produce some really fine films, and not just relatively enjoyable, or would have gone down the path of Disney. (The trailer for "Brother Bear," the next to last 2D feature from Disney which isn't a sequel animated overseas, was very obnoxious, especially the saccharine child bear character, though Dave Thomas and Rick Moranis, as the McKenzie Brothers reincrnated as hoser moose, were engaging, and will probably prove to be so in the film proper.)

Michael Sat Aug 2 13:22:33 2003 Gained something in translation? > I agree with you that the scene with Proteus > and his father Dymas was wonderful. But overall, Proteus' relationship > with Sinbad could have been developed a bit more, and the climax, when > Proteus succumbs to the inevitable result of the cliches romantic subplot > without blinking an eye, reinforced my opinion that he was little more > than the cardboard noble friend, stepping aside for the hero in every > situation, of a Victorian romance. I don't see that as a weakness, but then I'm halfway through Dickens's _Dombey and Son_ (my reading habits change here in Budapest when my sci-fi supply runs out and I have to resort to the used bookstores to feed the reading demon, because the reading habits of English speakers in Budapest frankly suck -- all kinds of romance novels, with a scattering of really nice old books.) > But maybe the Hungarian translation > smoothed over some plot holes (Sinbad's sudden return at the end), Sinbad *has* to return suddenly, dude! > annoying quips ("Who's bad? Sinbad!"), Now that, that was missing. Thankfully. Ick. > and "banter" > which is supposed to be witty, I gather from the vocal performances and > animation, and yet lacks even the obnoxious wisecracks from earlier, and > feels so much like filler. Hmm. I liked it in Hungarian. But then, I like bubble gum and popcorn, too. Especially well-written bubble gum. My wife was even more impressed. Just now she said, again, "Das war der schoenste Film, den ich je gesehen habe." > waiting > to be placed on Toonjunkies when Michael returns and has time to do > anything at all to the site): Return has nothing to do with it -- but time should be coming up this week, thank God. July was filled with Javascript (nice new popup menus at http://www.techspex.com) and several nice solid translation projects, meaning I will have a house to return to in the first place. The last of the translation projects has a deadline of Aug 5 -- this week. Travel plans have changed -- we got an even *better* deal on a ship coming back. $545 for two people (that's $1090 for four, you see, and again recall the seven days of luxury and day care) from Southampton to NYC, arriving Sep. 21 -- Jenn? You guys going to be in town that day? Wouldn't mind seeing you! Next week, we're leaving for Germany for a while, where I managed to score a couple weeks paying work, no less. How cool is *that*? I'm finally living my dream life, really and truly. Now if I can just keep it going.

Emsworth Sat Aug 2 13:33:51 2003 Re: Gained something in translation? > I don't see that as a weakness, but then I'm halfway through Dickens's > _Dombey and Son_ (my reading habits change here in Budapest when my sci-fi > supply runs out and I have to resort to the used bookstores to feed the > reading demon, because the reading habits of English speakers in Budapest > frankly suck -- all kinds of romance novels, with a scattering of really > nice old books.) Perhaps because Dickens' writing style helps overcome the melodramatic tendencies, and the fact that so many of his characters are gloriously larger than life adds to that. > Sinbad *has* to return suddenly, dude! Read my review for clarification on my complaint. It was not the return but the lack of any explanation whatsoever for it. Does he have to return without even a sign of a struggle to escape Tarterus, or any indication of how he got back? Did Eris let him go only to come back and taunt and rant at him more? That was never made in the least bit clear. The moment works, mostly, in a "here comes the cavalry" way, but even the cavalry seldom arrives in Kansas suddenly after being stationed in Alaska. I know, suspension of disbelief, and perhaps it would be easier to take if I saw it again, but even a simple "How'd you get back from Tarterus?" "Long story, you'd never believe it" would have sufficed. > Return has nothing to do with it -- but time should be coming up this > week, thank God. July was filled with Javascript (nice new popup menus at > http://www.techspex.com) and several nice solid translation projects, > meaning I will have a house to return to in the first place. The last of > the translation projects has a deadline of Aug 5 -- this week. Good. Check your e-mail, then, please. And in case you don't, here's the update page (realized I'd be better off just re-entering the information for the blank pages as "new features," since the link remains the same): http://members.aol.com/hungrywolverines/Toonjunkies.html > Travel plans have changed -- we got an even *better* deal on a ship coming > back. $545 for two people (that's $1090 for four, you see, and again > recall the seven days of luxury and day care) from Southampton to NYC, > arriving Sep. 21 -- Jenn? You guys going to be in town that day? Wouldn't > mind seeing you! Southampton! While you're there, in addition to saying hi to Jenn and so forth (might see if Eric Schissel feels like coming up from Ithaca for the occasion), eat a bagel for us! > Next week, we're leaving for Germany for a while, where I managed to score > a couple weeks paying work, no less. How cool is *that*? I'm finally > living my dream life, really and truly. Now if I can just keep it going. Congratulations!

Jenn Sat Aug 2 14:48:13 2003 Chateau d' Jenn > arriving Sep. 21 -- Jenn? You guys going to be in town that day? Wouldn't > mind seeing you! Yes. My folks are coming sometime in there...do you need a place to stay for free? We have a free futon. Same goes for any toonbotians who want to visit NYC. :)

mouse Sat Aug 2 15:16:29 2003 Re: Chateau d' Jenn careful, jenn - we might actually take you up on that! hope you guys can get together - i, personally, think it would be wonderful to be in the position of meeting a cruise ship just in from southhampton. of course, to do it properly, one needs a vintage hispano-suissa, or possibly a rolls...and these days, the place would probably be full of the hoi poloi...ah well. and do have a bagel for all of us - or perhaps a nice piece of new york cheesecake...

Michael Sat Aug 2 16:32:38 2003 Re: Chateau d' Jenn > it would be wonderful to be in the > position of meeting a cruise ship just in from southhampton. At $545 for a double cabin, we're in the equivalent of steerage. It's just that steerage in the twenty-first consists of free run of a ship larger than my home town, with a twenty-four-hour all-you-can eat buffet stocked from the same kitchens as the first-class restaurant, a movie every night, cable TV, Web access, and day care. For $545 for two people for seven days. > and do have a bagel for all of us - or perhaps a nice piece of new york > cheesecake... Bagels we have in Bloomington. Made by transplanted New Yorkers.

mouse Sun Aug 3 15:48:10 2003 Re: Chateau d' Jenn > we're in the equivalent of steerage. ah - so she can leave the hispano-suiza in the garage, and just bring a hand-cart. > Bagels we have in Bloomington. Made by transplanted New Yorkers. i'm told, though, that the water makes all the difference. the owner of garden state bagels (our local chain) says he imports his water from new jersey. you could try the corned beef, instead.

Michael Sat Aug 2 16:20:58 2003 Re: Chateau d' Jenn > Yes. Cool! > do you need a place to stay > for free? Not when coming by ship, no. There's no jet lag, you see -- you gain an hour every night for a week and arrive rested and extremely well-fed. Then you disembark, get into your rental car, and hit the road. This is another all-surface trip -- they're much, much cooler, and restore the feeling that you're on a planet instead of just living in a mall somewhere. We've never sailed westwards. Since you're gaining time instead of losing it every night, we'll be much more able to wake up early and see (1) the dawn and (2) New York friggin Harbor *at* dawn. Gotta charge the batteries in the video camera; this one's going to be great. On the way over this spring, we did get up at the very crack of dawn to view the Rock of Gibraltar, which was a very, very strange sight indeed after eight days at sea, with nothing to break the horizon-to-horizon view of water except the very occasional other ship. (And that was a *busy* shipping lane...)