Toonbots message board: Somethings stunning, all right.

mouse Mon Mar 31 16:00:45 2003 Please don't go I feel like there's a whole alternate message board out there I'm somehow missing. I know there has been some passion here about the war, but I didn't think it was intended to harm anyone here, and it upsets me to find that it has. I really hope you don't leave, Tirdun - you've had some good things to say, and your Toonbots takeoffs (the whole Lenin series!) are just hysterical. I should have realized that only someone with your quirky sense of humor could have been THE PENGUINS; I have enjoyed matching deranged wits over that. If anything I have said offended you, please accept my deepest apologies. I'm sure I have said things denigrating the intelligence of people with other points of view; I make the fatal error of thinking of these people as some anonymous 'them' - certainly not anyone _I_ would actually know. You will point out that my saying "Well, of course I didn't mean _you_ when I said that" is really not much of an apology - and you are right. I even know better. This (and the whole Middle-East/terrorist things that are inevitably involved with it) is a very complex situation; different people have valid reasons for believing different courses of actions are the best; we each assess what we see as the costs and the benefits, and make our choice on which we feel is the greater. I can respect someone who makes a different decision than mine, if they base it on some actual knowlege of/thought about the situation (as I hope my own decision is). I will admit to having no patience with people who follow the masses blindly; clearly this is _not_ you, and I am very sorry if you thought I believed otherwise of you. But you mentioned Rush - so you have to admit, there are conservatives out there who _are_ content to mouth the party line, without really thinking through its implications. But again - this is clearly not you. (And _I_ will admit that there are peace activists who have not thought things through, and are equally knee-jerk in their reactions. I agree that there isn't much benefit to bringing business in San Francisco to a halt, when you are trying to stop a war.) I am a life-long Democrat, and try though I might, I can't find anything I like about this administration, and I'm sure I've made that clear. I have serious problems with Bush's entire domestic program, and I am upset that the House seems willing to just rubber-stamp it. However, I don't think all Republicans are automatically idiots; there are several I actually admire. (And I certainly don't object to Independents! - some days I'm ready to switch myself). As to the war: I feel that we should have worked harder at diplomacy, and that we definitely should not have alienated so many of our allies going in. But I have to admit - now that we are there, I think we have to finish the thing up properly; it would be unconscionable to once again make promises of freedom to the Iraqi peoples, and then abandon them. And on a purely practical plane, you can't just suddenly call back the troops and say "Sorry about that - our bad" - I think that would have many of the same consequences, in terms of increased terrorist activity, that continuing the war would have. I just hope we can do it quickly, with a minimum loss of life (on all sides), and that we will have the wisdom to administer a peace that will truly benefit the Iraqis, and maybe even the whole Middle East. I am fortunate not to know anyone directly involved in the war, but I live in San Diego, midway between the Navy base and Camp Pendleton. The paper is full of pictures of Marines and sailors saying goodbye to their families; of parents leaving small children. And of course, now, of the deaths of some of those same sailors and Marines. I hope that your brother-in-law, your friends, and your coworker come through this safe. People like these are one reason I opposed this - I think that the very least we owe these people who are willing to sacrifice their lives for us, is to be very sure that we have no other choice before we ask them to do so. This is one forum that actually does get into politics in some depths, although doing so does run some risks; it's not for nothing that discussing politics is considered inappropriate in polite conversation. I respect the opinions of everyone here, even if I might not agree with them. I hope I've never left anyone with the impression that I necessarily thought they were bad or stupid, just because I thought some opinion of theirs was uniformed or wrong, but I probably haven't been clear about that. Please, everyone, now - however irritated my posts get, the last thing I want is to hurt any of you! Please view any offence I give as revealing _my_ shortcomings, in not being able to restrain my temper, and express myself better. And please tell me when you think I am misinformed, and wrong. I will be particularly sorry to lose you, Tirdun, now that I have a better understanding of where you are coming from. I wish I had a better knowlege of the Koran, and of the history of the Middle East. Most of what I know about the area has to do with the origins of Israel, and while that situation is important, it's not all there is. I've missed you, Tirdun, and I will miss you even more now. You stopped posting in part because of your job situation, as I recall; I hope that is resolved now. I am sorry for any part my words played in your decision to leave; I hope you will reconsider. Be well.

Emsworth Mon Mar 31 22:13:29 2003 Re: Please don't go Eloquent post, my dear mouse. Confess that I'm not entirely sure when the forum first became a political hot spot (and as you know, never been especially fond of heated discussions of that nature), but Tirdun has been a valued member of the Jihad, and a pleasant on-line companion, friend even, and will be missed. (So many gone now, gopher, Pooga, the late Tim Bram, Jen, not sure why this is the one remaining online comics forum I even bother with on rare occasions.) Also, though I mentioned it in e-mail to Tirdun (and Michael), should state for the record that I have no idea where the notion came that my earlier, unintentionally confusing post was in respond to the Penguins message. Rather, I had been dealing with some decidedly far from unmixedly pleasant personal experiences and incidents (and still am), and didn't care for the reminders of my personal mental health problems, even if the last ("I can only fear for Emsworth's own stability") was apparently merely meant to express a personal concern, rather than a jibe. That is all. Again, farewell, Tirdun, but perhaps you can return when this all blows over (as it must at *some point*), or at least keep in touch with us through other means.

mouse Tue Apr 1 14:29:09 2003 Re: Please don't go thanks, emsworth. i know i'm one of the worst offenders for political comments, and i can get up in arms, and then charge off madly in all directions. i tend to rail at the great indeterminant 'they', and forget that i may actually have some friends out there. i actually _do_ try to control myself, because i know it bothers people (like you) - but sometimes i can't seem to help myself. again, please, everyone - it's just me ranting; feel free to slap me upside the head if i trample all over your toes during my charge. i also emailed my apologies to tirdun, which were accepted. i do very much hope that after things calm down, he will come back. it _has_ gotten awful quiet here, but i know 'real life' has curtailed a lot of people's activities - here's hoping 'real life' hurries up and gets its act together, so we can all get back to having fun! besides - i worry about people. i'm really glad _you're_ still around, emsworth. now if we can just get michael cheered up enough to fire up the toon-o-matic again.....

Michael Wed Apr 2 14:11:04 2003 Re: Please don't go > now if we can just get michael cheered up enough to fire up the > toon-o-matic again..... It's precisely episodes like this that make me wonder what the point is in being cheerful enough to be funny. It's clear to me that it's not anybody's comments but mine that have Tirdun so angry -- but I'm damned if I'm going to be even a tacit party to war crimes, and if it offends any American citizen to have pointed out to them that they have blood on their hands, so be it. They haven't been offended to death -- which is precisely what is going on right now in our names in Iraq. "My country, do or die" didn't play well at the Nuremburg trials, and with good reason. Emsworth -- this place got to be a political hotspot at roughly 10 AM on 9/11/2001, when I saw the World Trade Center burning on the TV and realized it was an excellent Reichstag. I would have been hugely gratified to have been proved wrong at any point in the subsequent year and a half, and maybe I'm still going to end up wrong. I fervently hope so.

mouse Wed Apr 2 16:55:13 2003 Re: Please don't go > It's precisely episodes like this that make me wonder what the point is in > being cheerful enough to be funny. well, funny in these politically correct times can be hard - one is either totally bland, or runs the risk of offending everyone. perhaps you could put up a disclaimer as a banner? you know, something like "WARNING: content in this strip has been produced by a flaming liberal-pinko-anti-Bush peacemonger, and as such reflects his personal biases and opinions, which he is hereby expressing in accordance with his right to freedom of speech, or such rights as still remain to him. If you don't like it, tough luck - this is still America, dammit!" - then perhaps some sort of grapefruit-smashing-in-the-face animation. *sigh* and i'm sure _that_ doesn't look as funny as i want it to be. i don't know why everyone is suddenly so testy - it seems to me a sign that we are all of us (of whatever stated opinion) rather nervous and unhappy about this, and in the manner of injured dogs, lash out at those just trying to look at the wound. > It's clear to me that it's not anybody's comments but mine that have > Tirdun so angry -- and here i though it was _mine_ - the ones about "don't any of these people know history" and wondering how many iraqis have said "we _have_ to support him, he's the president" over the years. i think tirdun is really worried about his friends in the military. i sympathize with his fear for them; i guess the only thing you can hope for in consolation of their loss is that people will appreciate their sacrifice. perhaps the echos of 'baby-killer!' from the vietnam protests are still ringing too loudly for people to notice that no one is shouting that now. i too do not understand why "opposed to war" == "unsupportive of everyone in the military". as i have said before, i don't know why feeling we shouldn't be sending people off to be killed is seen as _not_ supporting our troops - if i were one of those troops, i should think anyone who strongly opposed the idea of me getting killed was pretty much on my side - but clearly i'm not one of the troops. there was a quote in my local paper a few weeks back, from a Marine watching a peace demonstration. he said something along the lines of "i always thought you were supposed to stand behind the guys who were saving your ass" (the reporter noted that this comment was punctuated by the marine spitting on the ground). now i can understand his wanting to be appreciated for risking his life - but what he seems to have missed is that there was a _choice_ made about whether or not our collective asses were put in danger. and i would think the guy putting his life on the line would appreciate it if we didn't insist he do it just because someone has an agenda. as with the chicken and the pig considering breakfast - our stakes in the decision are somewhat different. there seems to be so much knee-jerk dualism nowadays - 'french' == 'ferverent yet cowardly supporter of jacques chiraq', 'anti-war' == 'saddam lover', 'questioning tactics' == 'giving aid and comfort to the enemy' - and these then are used in place of any thoughtful discussion. i guess it works when you are screaming it in the face of a counter-demonstrator, but it does hurt to see it here, among friends. i really hate emoticons; i figure writers have done without them for centuries and still managed to let their readers know when they meant to be funny - but then, i am hardly a world-class author, and my wit seems less apparent to others than i would like to think. i truly did not mean to offend tirdun, and i apologized for that; i would much rather have a discussion with him. i think his decision to leave so abruptly, and without giving us the benefit of the doubt, in terms of our intentions, was unfortunate. but tempers do seem to be rather frayed, lately. > but I'm damned if I'm going to be even a tacit party to > war crimes, and if it offends any American citizen to have pointed out to > them that they have blood on their hands, so be it. They haven't been > offended to death -- which is precisely what is going on right now in our > names in Iraq. "My country, do or die" didn't play well at the > Nuremburg trials, and with good reason. um...allow me to point out that this is perhaps not the most tactful way to make your point - diplomacy has its values on many levels, and as dear rummy has demonstrated, one rarely wins people over by calling them names. i do agree with the underlying sentiment - people have _got_ to be willing to question and even oppose what their country is doing 'in their name'. i was thinking of it on a slightly homier level - one should support one's friends, but if you knowingly go along with one on a carjacking - well, 'i was just supporting my buddy' is pretty much guaranteed to get you convicted as an accomplice. it doesn't _matter_ if he's the president - wrong is wrong, and if he's doing wrong, you object. one must note that the republicans did not feel they had to be supportive of president clinton over the monica lewinsky thing - and i personally can't quite see 'fling with an intern' >> 'launching a preemptive war'. maybe i'm just bad at math. > Emsworth -- this place got to be a political hotspot at roughly 10 AM on > 9/11/2001, and here _i_ thought it went back to about the 2000 election :) i think it was the blurb to this toon: http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/toon20001127.html that hooked me on toonbots. (although admittedly, it is a relatively mild expression of pique) still - there was some leadup to it. (well, in the blurbs, anyway.) i too miss the formerly lunatic nature of the forum, and all the people who once came here. at the same time, i have enjoyed the freedom to express my irritation with our current leadership (and always remember: complaining about those in authority has always been the underlying motivation of all political activity). i wish we could preserve both; and i _really_ wish we could avoid the times setting us all at each other's throats. much as i hate to bring up a main-stream comic, i find myself sympathizing with satchel pooch: can't we all just get a lawn?

Chris Thu Apr 3 03:46:36 2003 Re: Please don't go > i too miss the formerly lunatic nature of the forum, and all the people who > once came here. at the same time, i have enjoyed the freedom to express my > irritation with our current leadership (and always remember: complaining > about those in authority has always been the underlying motivation of all > political activity). i wish we could preserve both; and i _really_ wish we > could avoid the times setting us all at each other's throats. much as i hate > to bring up a main-stream comic, i find myself sympathizing with satchel > pooch: can't we all just get a lawn? Agreed. But there's no reason why the lunatic nature should be "formerly". Granted, we've had a lull of seriousness lately, but with good reason. Hopefully, things will sort themselves out fairly soonish. For all who need or desire them, there are buckets of ice water available, courtesy of the wolverines. Can't we all just get a prawn?

mouse Thu Apr 3 15:24:30 2003 Re: Please don't go > For all who need or desire them, there are buckets of ice water available, > courtesy of the wolverines. > Can't we all just get a prawn? ooooo - prawns on the lawn! and we'll put some champagne in the icewater buckets, and toast the wolverines! waitaminit, waitaminit - easy, there, guys, i meant 'toast' as in 'sing the praises of' .... trust me, i would _never_ consider 'toasted wolverine' as a menu item ... have a prawn?

Brother Emsworth Thu Apr 3 16:11:07 2003 Re: Please don't go >... have a prawn? Don't come the raw prawn with me, old thing!

Chris Thu Apr 3 20:06:54 2003 Re: Please don't go > Don't come the raw prawn with me, old thing! The raw prawn drawn 'pon the lawn is gone!

Emsworth Fri Apr 4 08:07:20 2003 Re: Please don't go > The raw prawn drawn 'pon the lawn is gone! Strapped for cash? Want to get rid of some of your un-needed crustaceans? Try Relatively Honest Lemuel the prawnbroker today!

mouse Fri Apr 4 15:23:54 2003 today's tales for tots once aprawn a time, there was a young oriental lad who liked to scampi about on the lawn. although diminuative in stature, he hoped his in-sushi-ant attitude and snappy wit would win him the love of a lady. alas, the first lass he approached responded to his overture of "what's cookin', good lookin'?" with "get lost, shrimp!" leaving the poor lad a crushed asian. and the moral of the story is: if you want to get the grills, you've got to butter them up.

Chris Fri Apr 4 23:10:21 2003 Re: today's tales for tots > once aprawn a time, there was a young oriental lad who liked to scampi > about on the lawn. although diminuative in stature, he hoped his > in-sushi-ant attitude and snappy wit would win him the love of a lady. > alas, the first lass he approached responded to his overture of > "what's cookin', good lookin'?" with "get lost, > shrimp!" leaving the poor lad a crushed asian. > and the moral of the story is: if you want to get the grills, you've got > to butter them up. I knew that "Keep mouse In Drugs" fund the wolverines were running was a good idea. *tosses a few more dollars in*

mouse Sat Apr 5 12:34:26 2003 Re: today's tales for tots > I knew that "Keep mouse In Drugs" fund the wolverines were > running was a good idea. *tosses a few more dollars in* oh, so _that's_ where those came from! i could never quite make out the return address.... thanks, guys - have a prawn!

45 Wed Jul 16 15:45:48 2003 Re: today's tales for tots > oh, so _that's_ where those came from! i could never quite make out the > return address.... > thanks, guys - have a prawn!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Sun Apr 6 16:27:33 2003 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ^ 2 > and the moral of the story is: if you want to get the grills, you've got > to butter them up. I love you all.

mouse Mon Apr 7 17:15:57 2003 Re: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ^ 2 > I love you all. yes - but will you shower us with seafood?

Michael Sun Apr 6 16:25:20 2003 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > Strapped for cash? Want to get rid of some of your un-needed crustaceans? > Try Relatively Honest Lemuel the prawnbroker today! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

spinclad Wed Apr 2 03:15:17 2003 Great regret > So, after a brief hiatus I return to the board and find... this. > In the course of my readings I am accused of being a nazi, of being > ignorant of history, charged with various levels of stupiditiy, called a > Bush-clone, a supporter of hate and ignorance and of being a > backward-thinking warmonger, if not in so many words. ... I find myself most puzzled here. This is not ringing a bell. I would not have a problem calling Bush a backward-thinking warmonger and the rest; but i'm not recalling a case in the forum of referring to the esteemed Tirdun as a clone thereof, nor any such attributes _in se_; nor would I ever want to make such an identification. I could well imagine a member of the present Cabinet not fitting in here comfortably, in either direction; but that would be another case entirely. > ... > So, given the extraordinarily hostile nature of the recent messages, I am > sadded to say that this will be my last post. I have not had the time to > visit this board in the past, and I now have no inclination to visit it in > the future. I will simply take what I enjoyed about Toonbots and the > forums with me. > To end whatever contraversy there was, I was THE PENGUINS. All but a very > few of the posts were written by me and I meant them only as a way to > further the fun nature this board once possessed. ... Sure, THE PENGUINS occasioned great abuse between them and the PAF ... PAF ... THERE IS NO PENGUIN ARMED FRONT ... [Ow. Please excuse, I must go wash the flashedback taste of herring out of my gills] [Ugh. Better, I hope.] but, but that abuse wouldn't be what you mean above, surely? Nor the mocking of bin Ladin? > Michael, please unsubscribe me from the updates messages and take this as > my resignation from the PAFTWJ. I cannot speak the profound sadness I feel for the stand you feel you must take. If anything I have said or done, in my personal anger and prickliness, has offended you so, please hear my apologies.

Michael Wed Apr 2 13:56:11 2003 Re: Somethings stunning, all right. This is what I've just emailed to Tirdun. If he thinks this kind of hyperbole is appropriate for a public forum, I will honor his choice by responding in kind. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Where was it, precisely, that you started to notice I wasn't conservative? And where was it, precisely, where you started to think my rage and pain at the loss of American democracy had anything to do with you, or anybody remotely as well-meaning or well-read as you? And at what point did you think that a difference with me or my politics was something not to be directed to me, but rather to the public at large? Is it just that you cannot *stand* to have one tiny slice of the media that doesn't mollycoddle you with some pipe dream that everything's fine and we're not being led by a madman advised by war criminals? I have friends and family in the military as well, of course -- so do we all. Does that mean I have to think it's morally correct to send them into harm's way at the whim of big business or some latter-day Caligula? What kind of idiot do you take me for? I'm disappointed -- immensely disappointed -- that you chose to take your toys and go home instead of giving anybody sufficent respect to refute any point said, as up until this day I have always repected you as a thinking individual. And I'm saddened by the fact that you seem somehow to have taken it personally, because that in itself is an indication of the sorry state of American political discourse. I'm not going to apologize; I have nothing to apologize for. If you think it's offensive to be reminded that things aren't quite right, then there's obviously nothing I can say to make it right, because -- by your own logic -- as an anti-war activist I'm a Stalinist America-hater who wants our troops to die. I don't believe you think that, but if you think *I believe* you're a Nazi, then you obviously don't respect me enough to allow me to have any political opinion divergent from your own, and frankly you must be sufficiently divorced from reality that I have no idea what you think. Maybe you're going to come drive a truck through my house. How can I know? So fine. You're off the mighty Toonbots mailing list, for whatever comfort that might give you not to be associated with a liberal. I'm sorry to have been such a burden to you. And if you ever deign to actually address me directly, I'll welcome the chance to see what the hell kind of crack you're smoking. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is there anybody else here at this point who is still laboring under the misconception that I'm a nice guy? Somebody still waiting to be offended? I've got plenty more caustic wit here, if anybody else wants some.

Michael Wed Apr 2 14:25:35 2003 I still don't get it. OK, from the last PENGUINS post to Tirdun's post on the 31st, the only possible offensive post I can find, and this is stretching it, is my own mention of "Our Glorious Leader can do no wrong. Sieg heil ('Hail victory,' for you monolingual types.)" I'm sorry -- that just isn't half as offensive as any number of things I've said in the past. So... I just really don't get it.