Toonbots message board: World Trade Center

Emsworth Tue Sep 11 10:30:53 2001 Re: World Trade Center > I'm sure by the time you see this, you'll already know about the jet that > ran into the side of the World Trade Towers. I can't see it from work, but > my husband, who works down on 26th, can see it. There's a massive hole in > the side of the building. I dunno why I'm posting about it, it was just > kind of shocking. Just heard about it on the news (from the library labs.) Not sure what to say or think, really. Sigh.

Jenn Tue Sep 11 12:08:56 2001 Re: World Trade Center Most of my office went home, but my apt is closer to downtown than the office. There were masses of people on the streets, trying to get home on the subways, which were closed down. I have this to say. This is our generations 'Where were you when JFK was shot?'. At least for New Yorkers. The office stood together in the foyer and watched on the tv while the towers fell over. Additionally, I know someone who works in the Pentagon, so I'm a little worried about him. At the current time, there's three hijacked planes still unaccounted for. If I go home, I have to walk. It only takes about an hour and a half to walk, so it's not the end of the world. I feel bad for the three women who just left who are going to walk over the 59th street bridge toward Queens to go home. I'm going to hang out at work for a while, though, there's little reason for me to go home right now.

mouse Tue Sep 11 10:33:44 2001 Re: World Trade Center i'm glad you posted, all i know about you is you are in NY -- i'm glad you are away from the World Trade Center.

Michael Tue Sep 11 16:17:42 2001 Re: World Trade Center > i'm glad you posted, all i know about you is you are in NY -- i'm glad you > are away from the World Trade Center. Same here. I got to a public terminal as soon as I heard, and saw that Jenn had posted, and breathed a sigh of relief. Then I sat and watched the TV for a while. Some nice footage there. What's weird is that it doesn't look too much like the movie Godzilla... Normally, as y'all know, I think it's wrong to kill people in revenge. I didn't agree with killing MacVeigh. But this time, this is just stupid, wanton destruction, serving no purpose or agenda besides making terror and fear a larger part of the worldview of a relatively peaceful nation. It's twentieth-century crap and I thought we'd all grown up. My suggestion: as people are found who are connected, let's chain them to a post in Grand Central Station.

mouse Tue Sep 11 17:03:29 2001 Re: World Trade Center I hate to say it, but I kind of agree with you. Apparently, while all the world leaders (including Arafat) are expressing shock and horror, the Palestinians are dancing in the streets. I don't know, of course, if Palestinian terrorists were responsible; I think the Palestinians have been screwed over for decades (not the least by their Arab 'friends'). But I honestly don't see how they can expect this action, and their reaction, to cause the rest of the world to look on them as anything but vicious animals. It does make you want to see a serious military attack on whatever country this horrible thing was done in aid of. The calmed down answer of course, is: 1) executing the people involved makes them martyrs, and justs adds to the list of 'rotten things the rest of the world has done to us and that we have to get revenge for' and 2) the people dancing in the street were probably no more directly involved that the people in the WTC, they get their news with a definite slant, and mowing them down will no more punish the Palestinian authority for its lunatic world view than killing Americans punishes the US for its Middle Eastern policies. The end result of killing just seems to be more killing, unless you kill every single one of your enemies off -- and would we really want to be part of a genocidal action? But I don't know what can be done to rid the world of so much hate. I don't know how you convince people like this that killing more people can't change history, that it only brings more hatred back down on them. I don't know what to do with people who really would rather die than stay alive in this incredible, wonderful world, and actually _do_ _something_ to make life better. I guess actually making a positive effort is a lot harder than just throwing away lives.

Michael Tue Sep 11 17:13:58 2001 Re: World Trade Center > Palestinians are dancing in the streets. Oh, that's just redneck stuff. That's not serious -- those people didn't actually do this, and it doesn't bother me. No, what really bugs me is the momentum all this will lend to fascism here at home. Within the year I guarantee there will be a bill before Congress giving the FBI the right to read all mail and banning encryption, to prevent terrorist attacks like this one. Never mind that I've been going through intrusive security checks for years and it didn't hinder this operation one whit -- the quality of life of all of us will be worse thanks to these morons. And the point I'm making is -- THEY DIDN'T GAIN ANYTHING. They just committed a fancy kind of suicide. Morons. > I don't know, of course, if > Palestinian terrorists were responsible We'll see. Osima bin Laden has been making similar threats and maybe he's behind it. The Taliban says not, and he's in hiding there -- but then again, they *would* say that. > It does make you want to see a serious military attack on > whatever country this horrible thing was done in aid of. No, no -- I don't agree with military action at all! Killing civilians wouldn't make a difference. The only possible answer is making it illegal to ban education. If more people were exposed to a worldview that included things other than violent millennia-old texts describing gang wars and gods with the moral sense of a three-year-old, less of this crap would happen. I've had it with fundamentalists. > The calmed down answer of course, is: 1) executing the people involved > makes them martyrs, and justs adds to the list of 'rotten things the rest > of the world has done to us and that we have to get revenge for' Again. Education. But in the meantime, chain the perpetrators up in Grand Central. > the Palestinian authority for its > lunatic world view Palestine per se has officially deplored the action. I don't think they did it, but rather a much more secret group of nutcases. But mark my words, this gives the government two things they've wanted: a reason to eliminate privacy, and a reason to have a nice profitable little war. I'll bet Georgie's fairly bubbling.

mouse Tue Sep 11 18:07:54 2001 Re: World Trade Center > Within the year I guarantee there will be a bill before Congress > giving the FBI the right to read all mail and banning encryption, to > prevent terrorist attacks like this one. this i think is a little _too_ paranoid. a) no one puts things in snail-mail anyway these days (except bills) and 2) too many programmers in too much of the rest of the world are working on encryption tech. They may try to outlaw encryption that they can't decode (as has been bruited about before) - but i suspect that by the time any bill gets drawn up, enough will be known about how and where this was planned to have everyone off chasing other wild geese. > the point I'm making is -- THEY DIDN'T GAIN > ANYTHING. They just committed a fancy kind of suicide. Morons. no arguments there. > Osima bin Laden has been making similar threats and maybe he's > behind it. The Taliban says not, and he's in hiding there -- but then > again, they *would* say that. again, agreed. The Taliban's statement said 'We hope the courts find justice' - but somehow i suspect they don't hope it enough to hand Osama over. > The only possible answer is > making it illegal to ban education. Except places like Afghanistan don't _ban_ education (well, except for women, of course) - they just have a firm control over what that education consists of. We in the West have a funny view of history, which is not universally shared. We treat it as if it were factual and scientific - even though we know, from our own experience, that not all sides of the story get equal coverage. Other cultures view history, and the telling of same, in a different way - as a way to pass on their moral background, and point to future destinies. And I don't know that it is a bad thing for a people or country to remember that bad things have happened to it. The problem is, too many people think the only way to respond to this is to do bad things right back. And too many "fundamentalists" seem to have a somewhat faulty grasp of the fundamentals of their own religions. > If more people were exposed to a worldview that included > things other than violent millennia-old texts describing gang wars and > gods with the moral sense of a three-year-old, less of this crap would > happen. That would be really nice -- and if you could take all the kids away from their elders who will pass on all the old hatreds, that would be even better -- but unlikely to happen. What we really need to do is open up the propaganda machines, so people at least _hear_ the other side of the story -- and maybe get at least a tiny glimmering of an idea that there are real people over on that side, too. But I still don't know what you do with the people whose views are already set in cement. > Palestine per se has officially deplored the action. I don't think they > did it, but rather a much more secret group of nutcases. _Arafat_ deplored it - but he has been wringing his poor hands raw over all the bombings in Israel, too. But yeah, I don't think he did it. I think he knows getting the US mad at him is not a good thing. > But mark my words, this gives the government two things they've wanted: a > reason to eliminate privacy, and a reason to have a nice profitable little > war. I'll bet Georgie's fairly bubbling. I truly believe we will be able to defend what shards of our privacy remain from governmental interference (and I sure will fight to keep it so). I pray they aren't stupid enough to hope for a war (even tho Dubya did say that would give him an excuse to raid Social Security). I believe this has got to be tied to the Middle East - and that is a really nasty messy place to get in a fight. (Dubya's Daddy couldn't even finish off Sadaam - and _everybody_ hates him.) It will be interesting to see if all the messages of shock and support coming from the other governments in the world actually solidify into really working on some solutions, and not just trotting out the same old tired rhetoric.

Michael Tue Sep 11 20:51:42 2001 Re: World Trade Center > this i think is a little _too_ paranoid. a) no one puts things in > snail-mail anyway these days (except bills) and I meant email. You mean people still *use* snail mail? :-) No, I figure the FBI will attempt to have Carnivore, or something like it, required equipment in all ISPs. > 2) too many programmers in > too much of the rest of the world are working on encryption tech. They may > try to outlaw encryption that they can't decode (as has been bruited about > before) They will almost certainly do that, or try. > - but i suspect that by the time any bill gets drawn up, enough > will be known about how and where this was planned to have everyone off > chasing other wild geese. Doesn't matter. > And too many "fundamentalists" seem to > have a somewhat faulty grasp of the fundamentals of their own religions. My point exactly. > _Arafat_ deplored it - but he has been wringing his poor hands raw over > all the bombings in Israel, too. But yeah, I don't think he did it. I > think he knows getting the US mad at him is not a good thing. Boy, he looked bad on TV. Either he's got palsy or he *really* thought this was horrible. > (Dubya's Daddy couldn't even finish off > Sadaam - and _everybody_ hates him.) Didn't you read _American Hero_? The book they based the movie Wags the Dog on? It was fascinating -- the premise was that the entire Iraqi conflict was staged in order to protect the president from a political problem, to distract the public (the movie didn't have much to do with the book, obviously). Read it. It's a good book. Then read the appendix. It's a good theory. The point is, Daddy didn't *want* to win, just look like he was fighting. Everybody was happy -- the public had something to watch, the arms manufacturers got some profit at public expense, etc. A bonanza. Now, we know that the Bush family regards politics as their private little cash cow, so this makes a lotta sense. Eh. I'll go be cynical somewhere else for a while. I just think whatever comes of this, it'll suck.

mouse Tue Sep 11 21:45:24 2001 Re: World Trade Center > I just think whatever > comes of this, it'll suck. this, i do not argue with.

Michael Tue Sep 11 23:19:57 2001 Re: World Trade Center > this, i do not argue with. Oh. Darn. I'd hoped you'd say something optimistic here. So here's the skinny: the economy will be in the shitcan as of Thursday when the markets open up again. European, Asian, and Australian exchanges tanked bigtime today on very heavy trading, and the dollar fell against everybody else's currency (this is good news, as I will be paid for my current translation job in Euros.) This really annoys me.

pv Wed Sep 12 12:26:00 2001 Re: World Trade Center > So here's the skinny: the economy will be in the shitcan as of Thursday > when the markets open up again. European, Asian, and Australian exchanges > tanked bigtime today on very heavy trading, and the dollar fell against > everybody else's currency (this is good news, as I will be paid for my > current translation job in Euros.) For those that haven't figured it out by now - economics is nothing but psychology. If the economic indicators tank on Thursday, it will be because the people made it tank. At this point, well over 70% of the remaining economic growth is because of consumer spending. Just like the vote, every dollar counts. If you give in to the fear, sell all of your stocks, and hide in a corner, the terrorists have won. Stop and think for a minute: Has this incident truly damaged the economic viability of the entire country? Is there any reasonable situation where a terrorist attack should cause you to lose your job? NO! If a short-term dip in stock prices will hurt you, you really shouldn't be investing in the stock market anyway. The best way to make this a totally futile act on the parts of the random madmen is to choose to live your life the same way you did before it happened. PV

Brother Emsworth Wed Sep 12 14:38:37 2001 Re: World Trade Center > The best way to make this a totally > futile act on the parts of the random madmen is to choose to live your > life the same way you did before it happened. That is one of the sanest, most rational pieces of advice I've seen posted online since yesterday. Bravo.

Michael Wed Sep 12 14:47:38 2001 Re: World Trade Center > That is one of the sanest, most rational pieces of advice I've seen posted > online since yesterday. Bravo. Ha! My blog already said this yesterday! No, what has me worried is that *my* customers will freak. They're not consumers, so there will be a delay, but it worries me nonetheless. And my biggest customer is an inept corporation running on capital; they could belly-up any day. But then I consoled myself with the fact that I have enough equity in my real estate to cover me if necessary, and the prime rate should be coming down REAL fast, so maybe it's time to refinance anyway! And sleep helps.

mouse Wed Sep 12 15:39:29 2001 Re: World Trade Center btw, congrats to you (and others) for donating blood. the blood banks here are so backed up with donors they are asking people to come back next week, so i am planning to do that. definitely keeping on with normal life is the only proper response to these people. (and see, michael, this is why i keep being optimistic about things like privacy and the world-state at large -- we have this determination to get back to life-as-usual) (we even insist on continuing to read silly webtoons)

mouse Wed Sep 12 15:23:42 2001 Re: World Trade Center i was actually thinking about possible military engagements, but yeah, of course the economy is going to be a bit rocky. the stock market, of course, is full of a bunch of panicky manic-depressive chicken-littles. (note to whoever it is further down - i figure when the bottom falls out of the market is a good time to start picking up stocks) i'm more worried about the impact of travel upsets. we are now in our second day of (virtually) no air travel; this (i assume) also includes freight carriers like Fed-Ex. increased security is going to seriously slow things when traffic does resume, plus there are going to be a fair number of people panicky about hijackings -- and i haven't been too confident of the financial stability of the airlines lately anyway. maybe now we can get decent rail service - trains are more comfy anyway.

Michael Wed Sep 12 20:09:55 2001 Re: World Trade Center I was really thinking of the stability of my customers. VerticalNet in particular is reeeeal shaky. > maybe now we can get decent rail service - trains are more comfy anyway. Damn, yeah! Hard to drive trains into buildings! I was thinking the same of passenger ships. I think maybe there are good things going to happen, too.

Brother Emsworth Tue Sep 11 22:13:11 2001 Re: World Trade Center > I meant email. You mean people still *use* snail mail? :-) Ahem. Yes, some of us do. A good portion of the world, including the U. S., does not have adequate Internet access, or doesn't always care for e-mail. Catalogue orders, sending cards to friends or relatives, fan letters to shiny people, lpetitions to publishers, checks, cash gifts, all packages, birthday letters to very close relatives... Some of us still prefer to rely on the U. S. Postal service, with all of it's faults, for certain things. ::wolverines devour the rest of the ranting political paranoia and maul the surliness fairy:: (Not to offend anyone, but right at the moment, I think wolverines might be a better way of coping. That, and if able, donating blood to Red Cross. I hope to tomorrow.)