Toonbots message board: blurb for 9/7/01 WARNING: SERIOUS DISCUSSION AHEAD

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mouse Fri Sep 7 15:27:20 2001
blurb for 9/7/01 WARNING: SERIOUS DISCUSSION AHEAD

Wow - you have me worrying that my previous rant set you off (in fact, I'm so concerned I'm even going to use proper capitalization).

In many ways, I agree with you. The criminal incompetance of the last election, and the pro-mega-business, isolationist policy the 'administration' has put into place has me embarrassed as an American, and frankly terrified as a human being.

But I _absolutely_ refuse to believe this is the end of America as we (at least thought we) knew it. And I actually even think the Bushies themselves will help us return to the proper path, because they are just so incredibly obvious about the things they are doing. Again and again, I have seen people believe only what they want about a candidate, and somehow refuse to see things that don't match their personal beliefs. But I really believe Bush is going to succeed in alienating most if not all of the Republican backbone. (Wasn't Bush the one that talked about his WWJD bracelet in the campaign? Do Christians really believe squashing patients rights and provoking arms races is What Jesus Would Do?) I see Sen. Gramm's announced retirement as the first straw in the wind about this. I think Gramm realizes that the Senate is solidly gone from Republican hands in the next election, and he is finding himself a cushy place early.

We still have a free press, and while the TV end of it has decided to recreate itself as 'info-tainment lite', there still are newspapers and things like PBS radio that are digging into stuff - and enough of that rises to the attention of at least middle America that people are getting worried. I think people will continue to push for campaign finance reform (which would be a _huge_ help); they are also starting to make noises about what Bush is willing to do to the environment, and (on local levels at least) to start pushing to get something done about the actual mechanics of holding elections. (And just wait till the AARP realizes he's lying about not touching Social Security).

AND PEOPLE DO STILL CARE. And those of us who care need to actually do things -anything. I have become a regular correspondent to my Senators; I'm even considering cc'ing my Congressman (he's a rightist Republican, so I dispair of making an impression) - maybe they don't personally read it all, but I figure if they get a big enough pile of mail, they may actually start making some of the right noises in the House. (Want a subject to start with? Ask your Senator to question whether the President can unilaterally withdraw from treaties which required Senate approval to enact. This is a Constitutional question, which should be pursued.) I wish I had time to donate, but I do manage to scrape together a few $$ every month, and I try to send it where I think it will help. We absolutely cannot let the bastards win.

I keep hoping there is a way out - to contain him as quickly as possible, and maybe even get him out early. I actually have a vision here (and I hope it doesn't totally undermine everything I have said when I admit that some days I believe it could happen). We need to get Janet Reno elected governer in Florida in '02. I am sure that she will be willing to seriously investigate the 2000 Florida vote. The NYTimes did a story on the _very_ different ways absentee votes were counted in Republican and Democratic precincts; I believe this is just the tip of the iceberg. There has been discussion of people dropped from the voter lists because they were incorrectly listed as felons, people of color who were turned away from the polls for a variety of reasons, and other things that are clearly illegal. A careful investigation can surely tie this to the Bush campaign, and from there to ol' Dubya himself. By 2002, the Democrats should have both Houses, and I think it would be instructional for the Republicans to find themselves facing the loaded end of an impeachment. If wrongdoing is tied to the campaign, that puts both Bush _and_ Cheney in the hot seat. It might not even get that far (when _I_ look in Bush's eyes, I see a sort of deer-in-the-headlights, what-the-hell-am-I-doing-here look). President Gephardt in 2003. It could happen.

Totally seriously though - we have to keep fighting. Really, one always does have to fight to preserve what one values. And keep remembering - the majority voted _against_ Bush. He may have the fatcats, but we have the numbers, and in the end, we _must_ have the power.

Michael Fri Sep 7 16:27:48 2001
Re: blurb for 9/7/01 WARNING: SERIOUS DISCUSSION A

> Wow - you have me worrying that my previous rant set you off

No, no. Nothing to do with you, except it's always nice to find a like-minded sane individual. There are so few of us.

> In many ways, I agree with you. The criminal incompetance of the last
> election, and the pro-mega-business, isolationist policy the
> 'administration' has put into place has me embarrassed as an American, and
> frankly terrified as a human being.

It's going to get worse. Corporate America has been sinking its fangs into the nation at least since WWII and it's gone too far. We can't remove the parasite without killing the host.

We could start by acknowledging that American culture belongs to America -- do you think Disney would agree? Whenever Disney takes a public-domain story (see any Disney animated movie), those concepts leave the public domain forever. Same goes for public-domain music. Bob Dylan owns a great deal of American musical culture, having copyrighted lots of folk music. Since Bob Dylan will never die, neither will his copyrights. Even if he *does* die, though, his corporate identity will retain copyright to America for a century.

Does anybody believe that it supports creativity and culture that Disney owns all rights to Mickey Mouse forever and ever amen?

> But I _absolutely_ refuse to believe this is the end of America as we (at
> least thought we) knew it.

Pfft. Nice dream world. I've given up. I live for myself (which is, of course, what America is all about -- enlightened self-interest.) Heinlein saw this coming, and was (as always) 100% right.

> And I actually even think the Bushies
> themselves will help us return to the proper path, because they are just
> so incredibly obvious about the things they are doing.

My God. Bill Gates isn't obvious? The RIAA isn't obvious? The movie industry isn't obvious? It's all around us. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance, and it's TOO LATE. We were asleep at the wheel.

It's not just the theft of the Presidency. It's the theft of the entire culture and the death of freedom that has my knickers in a twist. The theft of the Presidency is just the barest little tip of the iceberg.

Yes -- the Republican party has doomed itself here. My grandmother is the most dedicated Republican in the history of the nation, and she just gets really quiet when Bush is mentioned. She won't say it, but *she's embarrassed.* You can't help but be mortally embarrassed that this once-great nation has elected a puppet and a clown to its highest office and is doing its damndest to pretend that's what we all wanted in the first place.

> Do Christians really believe squashing patients
> rights and provoking arms races is What Jesus Would Do?

Now, don't get me off on fundamentalism, but the "Christians" I grew up with certainly believe that Jesus would nuke the f***in towelheads, man, huhuhuh. Damn KKK wannabes to a man.

I'm a Quaker, by the way. Don't talk to me about the bankruptcy of Christianity.

> I see Sen.
> Gramm's announced retirement as the first straw in the wind about this. I
> think Gramm realizes that the Senate is solidly gone from Republican hands
> in the next election, and he is finding himself a cushy place early.

Gramm is not a stupid man. I accept your optimistic interpretation like the straw-to-a-drowning-man that it is. Thank you, mouse.

> We still have a free press

Except, of course, that it's owned lock, stock, and barrel by about four really big companies. The Coca-Cola thing? Did you see that getting any mainstream press? Even if it's total hooey, which it may well be, the corporados *don't attack each other* because they run a risk of losing advertising revenue.

Moral of the story: the advertiser owns the "free" press. There are no editorials left, because there are no interested citizens left. Why would anybody be interested? Doesn't matter how you vote anyway -- the vote will go to the highest bidder.

> things like PBS radio that are digging into stuff

Now PBS -- there's a cool lot.

> - and enough of that
> rises to the attention of at least middle America that people are getting
> worried.

So their pulse rate will be slightly higher as they're led to the slaughter. That's nice.

> I think people will continue to push for campaign finance reform
> (which would be a _huge_ help);

And which will never, ever, ever happen, as the people elected are those who benefit from the status quo. Period. It's as likely as gas prices falling during a Bush administration.

> (And just wait till the AARP realizes he's
> lying about not touching Social Security).

There's a thread of hope there, true.

> AND PEOPLE DO STILL CARE.

In between their bread and circuses? Maybe.

> I have become a regular correspondent to my Senators;

You know, there's a point where I'm remiss. I'll fix that. They'll be hearing from me a lot more. There are only 4 million people in Indiana. Our Senators notice individuals.

> (Want a subject to
> start with? Ask your Senator to question whether the President can
> unilaterally withdraw from treaties which required Senate approval to
> enact. This is a Constitutional question, which should be pursued.)

This is the second reference I've heard about this. Can you give me a keyword to look up? I don't follow the news very closely.

> I keep hoping there is a way out - to contain him as quickly as possible,
> and maybe even get him out early.

I take hope from the fact that he was "elected" in a year ending with a zero. One of my ancestors enacted that curse, by the way...

> and from there to ol' Dubya himself. By 2002, the Democrats should have
> both Houses, and I think it would be instructional for the Republicans to
> find themselves facing the loaded end of an impeachment.

Hmm. That's optimistic.

> (when _I_ look in Bush's eyes, I see a sort of
> deer-in-the-headlights, what-the-hell-am-I-doing-here look).

You have that dead on. He's always looked that way -- the man knows it's all an act, and so do the rest of us, and we STILL for some unknown reason all pretend that he's a President.

> He may have the fatcats, but we have the
> numbers, and in the end, we _must_ have the power.

Through history, numbers have not had power. Sorry. It was nice while it lasted, but it just ain't so, and hasn't been for a long time.

Tomorrow I'll repudiate the whole thing. I really did stay up too late last night.

mouse Fri Sep 7 17:14:17 2001
Re: blurb for 9/7/01 WARNING: SERIOUS DISCUSSION A


> Tomorrow I'll repudiate the whole thing. I really did stay up too late
> last night.

well, i'll stay hopeful then. i probably pay less attention to the shennanigans of big business than i should, but i really don't believe they have quite gobbled up america yet, and i don't think they ever will really quite manage it. there are an awful lot of small businesses out there, and that is where the real creativity lies. you mention Disney buying up intellectual properties -- but when was the last time they themselves did something original? the parasite can't afford to kill the host, either -- and i figure, where there's life, there's hope. (and i truly believe we are still alive, under it all)

(man, i can't argue these things on a friday - my brain is too fried to produce anything but cliches)

call me a cock-eyed optimist - but i figure there's still something there worth fighting for, and enough people on my side to give me some hope. and i figure you don't really lose until you quit.

what got me started on the treaty thing was an editorial by Bruce Ackerman in the NY Times - http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/29/opinion/29ACKE.html (it was still up a minute ago). it's titled 'Treaties Don't Belong to Presidents Alone' if you want to try searching for it outside NYT. granted, it's risky putting anything in front of the present supreme court, but it's an arguement that started out from the far right, so who can say?

now go get some sleep. (have some hot chocolate first).

Eric Schissel Sat Sep 8 07:42:19 2001
Re: blurb for 9/7/01 WARNING: SERIOUS DISCUSSION A

Visiting my parents atm and using the "basement machine" as it were, a Mac 7600, together with an AOL 4 browser- ie I don't particularly trust the combination for writing lengthy thoughts and not crashing (granted, I -could- write them in BBEdit and then cutpaste, but : I'm lazy.) Not to mention that I'm on a schedule :) ... so- I'd love to join this conversation (which is shaping up _most_ interestingly and to which I believe I have a thing or two to add, as well) but- Sunday, when I'm back in Ithaca.

The difference between two Oranges is South, West, and Jersey.

Till then.

-Eric Schissel

pv Mon Sep 10 14:58:26 2001
Re: blurb for 9/7/01 WARNING: SERIOUS DISCUSSION A

> Gramm is not a stupid man. I accept your optimistic interpretation like
> the straw-to-a-drowning-man that it is. Thank you, mouse.

Perhaps not (he *is* a college professor, in economics IIRC), but he sure *acts* that way. Remember when he was running for president in '96? Yeesh. PV

mouse Mon Sep 10 15:18:14 2001
Re: blurb for 9/7/01 WARNING: SERIOUS DISCUSSION A

running for president does really weird things to people. look what it did to bobdole. would dukakis have gotten into that tank to run for governer? would gore have have let his wardrobe become part of the public forum? (it even got nixon on laugh-in).

i think their secret service escorts give them drugs.

pv Mon Sep 10 15:22:17 2001
Re: blurb for 9/7/01 WARNING: SERIOUS DISCUSSION A

> i think their secret service escorts give them drugs.

I think they should be giving *us* those drugs too.

You have to assume that someone running for president is putting forward their best possible face. Scary thought, huh? PV






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