Toonbots message board: HOLY ME!

Brother Emsworth Mon May 28 20:51:48 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > ARRGGGHHH!!! WHY DID I MISS TOONBOTS FOR A LONG OLD TIME?!?! WHY!!!???!!! > I BLAME THE WOLVERINES!!!!! Humph! I'll have you know the wolverines take severe umbrage at that remark. Down, Guthrie, Gwendolyn, Gawain, down! ::wolverines growl ominously in Joe Nadeau's direction::

Napoleon Mon May 28 22:27:36 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > Humph! I'll have you know the wolverines take severe umbrage at that > remark. Down, Guthrie, Gwendolyn, Gawain, down! > ::wolverines growl ominously in Joe Nadeau's direction:: Umm... Ems? Do you know where Fenny is? Because I have no idea where she's got off to all of a sudden... ...and she's the one who's most likely to eat people... Joe? Run.

Brother Emsworth Tue May 29 01:36:11 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > Umm... > Ems? Do you know where Fenny is? > Because I have no idea where she's got off to all of a sudden... > ...and she's the one who's most likely to eat people... > Joe? Run. ::takes a quick head count of the wolverines:: You're right, she has done a bunk. Ahem. Fenny? Fenny, dear? Well, maybe if I leave this bit of carpeting dipped in steak sauce out, it should attract her attention. She does like most carpet fabircs, you know. Still, she usually returns home in the end, and she is the only one, so Joe shouldn't have too much trouble. The rest are right here with me, and you're still taking care of Godfrey and have him safely with you, right, Napoleon?

Napoleon Tue May 29 02:48:32 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > ::takes a quick head count of the wolverines:: > You're right, she has done a bunk. Ahem. Fenny? Fenny, dear? > Well, maybe if I leave this bit of carpeting dipped in steak sauce out, it > should attract her attention. She does like most carpet fabircs, you know. > Still, she usually returns home in the end, and she is the only one, so > Joe shouldn't have too much trouble. The rest are right here with me, and > you're still taking care of Godfrey and have him safely with you, right, > Napoleon? Wha? I thought YOU had him!

Brother Emsworth Tue May 29 12:27:50 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > Wha? I thought YOU had him! What? You begged me to let you have him for awhile, as you always wanted a cute cuddly wolverine around the home! I told you to watch his diet, too, and even cleaned up his collar! Have you searched everywhere? Made sure he's not hiding in the jihad's meta-fictional laundry hamper or something?

Michael Tue May 29 13:52:14 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > Made sure > he's not hiding in the jihad's meta-fictional laundry hamper or something? Um, he ate the laundry hamper last week.

Timber Bram Thu May 31 17:13:19 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > Um, he ate the laundry hamper last week. I have to remember to read this forum more frequently. You've caused me to laugh out loud. Twice. Within five minutes. Thanks. I needed that. Peace, Tim Bram.

Michael Thu May 31 21:40:01 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > I have to remember to read this forum more frequently. You've caused me to > laugh out loud. Twice. Within five minutes. > Thanks. > I needed that. Ho! Just wait until the Toon-o-Matic can draw the wolverines! We'll have no rest at all then! ... Waitaminnit, maybe this isn't such a good idea after all...

Timber Bram Fri Jun 1 02:59:33 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > Ho! Just wait until the Toon-o-Matic can draw the wolverines! We'll have > no rest at all then! ... Waitaminnit, maybe this isn't such a good idea > after all... You're right. Not a good idea. I think it's a *great* idea. Hmm. How about reproducing some of the zaniness from the forum in the strip? Of course, you'd not only need the wolverines but Emsworth, Napoleon, yourself, and who-knows-how-many-others. Probably everyone in the the actual jihad. You'd probably end up with enough material to last until you couldn't stand it anymore. Peace, Tim Bram <-- blatantly trying to increase his post count with pointless analysis.

Michael Fri Jun 1 15:17:51 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > You're right. Not a good idea. I think it's a *great* idea. > Hmm. How about reproducing some of the zaniness from the forum in the > strip? Of course, you'd not only need the wolverines but Emsworth, > Napoleon, yourself, and who-knows-how-many-others. Probably everyone in > the the actual jihad. > You'd probably end up with enough material to last until you couldn't > stand it anymore. Ah. You're new around here. I've been talking about doing the Jihad in the toon for months. The hard part is drawing them. The Toon-o-Matic really doesn't draw very well yet and I haven't had the neurons free to improve it. The problem is, whenever I really start thinking about it, I start to drift off into doctoral research... See, what I *really* want to do is to specify, say, <shape name="mouth" slot="mouth">. Then <shape name="face"> will already know what to do with "mouth" to express mouth aspects: smile, frown, anger, lookleft, lookright, yell, yawn, surprise, and so on. Thing is, the meaning of a lot of emotive words is intimately bound up with the way the face looks -- and the way our own face *feels* when we experience the emotion -- and that's essentially what I want to capture in the Toon-o-Matic. The only problem with this laughably simple goal is that it would be a PhD's worth all by itself. So I'm not really rushing it. My current PhD has been about ten years coming and I'm only now ready to start, effectively. So the obvious alternative would be simply to do something more attainable. But I'm just not built that way, apparently. I do half of something half-assed, then I realize how it *should* be, and how it *would* be if software technology were sufficiently advanced (and remember, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, so don't expect too little of future Toon-o-Matic releases!) -- and I FEEL THE PULL OF THE SINGULARITY. Really. I know that this is where it all starts. So I get up and do some laundry to calm down. By the way, your post count is to the point where you really need to think of a Jihad title. Then I'll tell the board who you are.

Timber Bram Sun Jun 3 00:47:52 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > The problem is, whenever I really start thinking about it, I start to > drift off into doctoral research... [cogent explanation of desired Toon-o-Matic capability snipped] > The only problem with this laughably simple goal is that it would be a > PhD's worth all by itself. So I'm not really rushing it. Y'know, I hadn't actually thought of this whole thing in terms of a research project before, but you're quite correct. It is obviously a totally new area of research that has applications in data modelling and knowledge representation. Other possible disciplines that could benefit include data compression and expert systems. > So the obvious alternative would be simply to do something more > attainable. But I'm just not built that way, apparently. I do half of > something half-assed, then I realize how it *should* be, and how it > *would* be if software technology were sufficiently advanced (and > remember, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from > magic, so don't expect too little of future Toon-o-Matic releases!) -- and > I FEEL THE PULL OF THE SINGULARITY. Really. I know that this is where it > all starts. You could, of course, adapt your current aspect attribute on the character tag to provide a wide variety of expressions--you've already done that to some extent with existing characters. Do you just need someone to volunteer to draw expression catalogues for necessary characters? Say the word and It Shall Be Done. Wolverines first? If Emsworth will be so kind as to provide a list of names with identifying characteristics and Michael would provide the list of necessary aspects (or expressions). > By the way, your post count is to the point where you really need to think > of a Jihad title. Then I'll tell the board who you are. Really? Already? I'm honoured! (If you're tracking such things, Emsworth is the one who got me into this.) Titles, titles. If you go along with the drawing idea, you could put me down as "Knight-Artificer of Pixels". Otherwise, I'd need to think about it some more. Peace, Tim Bram.

Napoleon Sun Jun 3 01:03:59 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > Wolverines first? If Emsworth will be so kind as to provide a list of > names with identifying characteristics and Michael would provide the list > of necessary aspects (or expressions). Hey, hey, HEY! Some of the wolverines answer to ME, ya know!

Timber Bram Sun Jun 3 01:59:04 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > Hey, hey, HEY! Some of the wolverines answer to ME, ya know! Actually, Ms. Napoleon, I *didn't* know. Forgive my ignorance of the finer details of the jihad hierarchy. The statement is amended to read: "If Emsworth and Napoleon will be so kind as to provide a list of names with identifying characteristics" and so forth. Peace, Tim Bram.

Napoleon Sun Jun 3 14:12:24 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > Forgive my ignorance of the finer details of the jihad hierarchy. No! *defenestrates mistah Bram a few dozen times* There, now you're forgiven.

TimberBram Sun Jun 3 19:46:05 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > No! > *defenestrates mistah Bram a few dozen times* > There, now you're forgiven. ::brushes specks of glass from his clothes and stands up shakily:: Rather forceful way of accepting apologies around here. Peace, Tim Bram.

Brother Emsworth Sun Jun 3 23:21:03 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > ::brushes specks of glass from his clothes and stands up shakily:: > Rather forceful way of accepting apologies around here. > Peace, Tim Bram. As you've only been a part of the jihad for a comparatively short time, Mr. Bram, you should probably consider yourself fortunate. I'm not sure you even want to know how many times Napoleon defenestrated me during the last month. Though you do almost get used to it after awhile. For the record, if you're interested, here's a few old threads in which Michael attempted to sketch jihad members and wolverines in paint or whatnot, in the hopes of improving upon them at some later date: http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/board_thread816.html (This is where the idea first arose) http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/board_thread913.html (Cute sketch of a pair of wolverines) http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/board_thread987.html (an attempt at refining High Priest gopher's appearance) Here's an approximate list for the wolverines, including some of their dietary preferences, though most of them aren't too picky [though aside from Fenny, most have a certain distaste for human flesh, and Guthrie's stomach lining is far too sensitive to even try it again] (Napoleon, who's served as the jihad's proxy wolverine warden in my absence, can remind me if I left anyone out): Guthrie -- the oldest, with a particular taste for large upholstered furniture pieces, wears a collar Fenny -- very fond of people, though we do try to monitor her diet; generally means well, though, just be extremely cautious if attempting to pet her, is particularly more formidable towards infidels and jerks Godfrey -- still very much a pup, wears a cute bow, and one of the more playful wolverines, though he does tend to nip at one's ankles and feet, likes laundry hampers and Napoloen (though not in quite the same sense, fortunately) Gwendolyn -- known for her dissarming smile and particularly soothing growl, particularly fond of cake and carpet fabric, likes to be scratched just below the left ear Gawain -- a rather sleepy wolverine, very peaceful, generally nibbles away at soft fruits, pillows, or curtains; particularly soft coat makes him very cuddly Millicent -- a serious minded animal with a slight scholarly bent, who's gnawed away at my copy of Bartlett's as well as at least one volume of Chesterton Alaric -- has especially durable teeth, often gnaws at wood furnishings, successfully dealt with the jihad's slight termite infestation, like sto play with frisbees and snails

Napoleon Mon Jun 4 00:51:16 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > (Napoleon, who's > served as the jihad's proxy wolverine warden in my absence, can remind me > if I left anyone out) There's the rest of the lot I specially hand-trained while you were gone (Fenny having already been mentioned), Statu, Sidney, Matthias, and Edward. Statu was the first I trained; he does tricks, knows simple arithmetic, and can wash windows so they're clean when I throw people through them. He's also a bit large and strong for a wolverine, perhaps because it's quite a workout washing windows a couple times taller than he is. Sidney is almost as soft and fuzzy as Gawain, except that her undercoat fell out one summer and decided to never grow back. She enjoys chasing her tail when she thinks no one's looking, or even when people are looking. These two are my "private stock", answering only to me. You might remember them from http://snaildust.xidus.net/mywolverines.gif (Michael, you could turn that into a 'this picture' link if you wanted). They have also been trained to never eat anyone unless I specifically tell them to. Matthias has oddly colored fur (being as he is half-weasel), tends to eat whatever he can filch, and is extremely playful. Those who wish to keep their fingers, beware. Edward is one of the pups, and is distinguishable by the fact that he especially likes the odd yet intriguing flavor of polyester. He has a propensity for sitting on laps, which, fortunately for him, most people have no problem with, as he is small and cute. I think that's everyone. *defenestrates Emsworth*

TimberBram Mon Jun 4 00:52:20 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > For the record, if you're interested, here's a few old threads in which > Michael attempted to sketch jihad members and wolverines in paint or > whatnot, in the hopes of improving upon them at some later date: > http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/board_thread816.html (This is where the > idea first arose) > http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/board_thread913.html (Cute sketch of a pair > of wolverines) > http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/board_thread987.html (an attempt at > refining High Priest gopher's appearance) [wolverine list snipped] Thanks for the thread references, Emsworth. (913 and 987 should exchange descriptions, though.) I'm waiting to hear what the honourable meta-cartoonist has to say about my offer to provide drawings. Given the impressively minimalist renditions in http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/board_thread987.html perhaps I'm out of line. Anxiously Waiting For Michael. Peace, Tim Bram.

Michael Mon Jun 4 16:00:57 2001 Wolverine renderings > I'm waiting to hear what the honourable meta-cartoonist has to say about > my offer to provide drawings. Given the impressively minimalist renditions > in http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/board_thread987.html perhaps I'm out of > line. I'm of two minds (at least) -- on the one hand, I could probably do something like a storyline. On the other, it would violate Rule #1 of Toonbots even more than collecting clipart heads off the Net. If it ain't from the Toon-o-Matic, it ain't Toonbots. (Except for heads, apparently.) Sorry, Tim. It's a nice offer and it's tempting, but it's just not of the Toonbots nature. Now, if you wanted to sketch some concept art or do fan(atic) art, that's different, but the promise I made to myself at the outset was that nobody draws Toonbots except the Toon-o-Matic. I hope to be able to draw Emsworth this week. The rework I did in April will help a lot with this, as one of the constraints of the old Toon-o-Matic was that it sorted subshapes according to color, which really made it nearly impossible to do line drawings. Now I think I have a handle on how things should work, I hope, so ... soon.

TimberBram Mon Jun 4 18:12:57 2001 Re: character rendering > it would violate Rule #1 of > Toonbots even more than collecting clipart heads off the Net. If it ain't > from the Toon-o-Matic, it ain't Toonbots. (Except for heads, apparently.) Hmmm. Okay. I wasn't aware of Rule #1. Oh, well. (I was assuming that since the heads were permissible similar drawing-type stuff would be as well.) > Now, if you wanted to sketch some concept art or do > fan(atic) art, that's different I'll work on that then. > I hope to be able to draw Emsworth this week. The rework I did in April > will help a lot with this, as one of the constraints of the old > Toon-o-Matic was that it sorted subshapes according to color, which really > made it nearly impossible to do line drawings. Now I think I have a handle > on how things should work, I hope, so ... soon. I guess my next question then relates to the whole character-development thing. Are you planning on having "character definition" mark-up that allows you to (for example) define what Emsworth looks like generally. Then the Toon-o-Matic instantiates the character in the appropriate aspect with the appropriate expression? I guess I'm thinking somewhat in terms of VRML object creation with a lot of options. For example (taking Emsworth again): {PROTOTYPE TYPE=character NAME=Emworth} {SPHERE NAME=head RADIUS=10/} {CIRCLE NAME=lefteye RADIUS=1 X=-2 Y=2 Z=2/} {CIRCLE NAME=righteye RADIUS=1 X=2 Y=2 Z=2/} {CIRCLE NAME=monocle RADIUS=1.5 X=2 Y=2 Z=2/} {LINE NAME=lefteye EXPRESSION=annoyed X=-3 Y=2 Z=2 X2=-1 Y2=2 Z=2/} {CIRCLE NAME=lefteye EXPRESSION=surprised RADIUS=1.25 X=-2 Y=2 Z=2/} {CIRCLE NAME=righteye EXPRESSION=surprised RADIUS=1.25 X=2 Y=2 Z=2/} {CIRCLE NAME=monocle EXPRESSION=surprised RADIUS=1.5 X=2 Y=0 Z=2/} {CIRCLE NAME=mouth EXPRESSION=surprised RADIUS=0.5 X=0 Y=-2 Z=2/} etc. {/PROTOTYPE} Then instantiation can handle aspect changes for profile, back view, 3/4 left or right views and so forth. Additionally, any NAMEd component would be individually manipulatable allowing, for example, Emsworth's monocle to drop from position when he's surprised. The expression attributes handle changes in the shape of items automatically. Anyway, you probably have your own plans for Toon-o-Matic development, so I'll shut up now. Peace, Tim Bram. PS. I think I still like "Knight-Artificer of Pixels" for my title. I'll submit some fanart items to justify it as soon as I can. Tim. PPS. Any instructions on how to get newlines, emphasis, or active links in a forum message? Tim.

Michael Mon Jun 4 19:04:09 2001 Re: character rendering > Hmmm. Okay. I wasn't aware of Rule #1. Oh, well. (I was assuming that > since the heads were permissible similar drawing-type stuff would be as > well.) That's fine, I don't think I ever really enumerated rules. Tirdun has also suggested hand-changing Lenin's face, for instance. It just isn't what I want to do. > I guess my next question then relates to the whole character-development > thing. Are you planning on having "character definition" mark-up > that allows you to (for example) define what Emsworth looks like > generally. Then the Toon-o-Matic instantiates the character in the > appropriate aspect with the appropriate expression? See the XML for the BoxJam cameo, and the first appearances of Hick and Chick -- what you're proposing is exactly what I'm doing. For simplicity, after a couple of episodes I move a character's definition into a separate file so it doesn't clutter up the episode definition. What I want to do, of course, is put up a character gallery with design XML. Eventually. Sigh. > {PROTOTYPE TYPE=character NAME=Emworth} {SPHERE NAME=head RADIUS=10/} > {CIRCLE NAME=lefteye RADIUS=1 X=-2 Y=2 Z=2/} {CIRCLE NAME=righteye > RADIUS=1 X=2 Y=2 Z=2/} {CIRCLE NAME=monocle RADIUS=1.5 X=2 Y=2 Z=2/} {LINE > NAME=lefteye EXPRESSION=annoyed X=-3 Y=2 Z=2 X2=-1 Y2=2 Z=2/} {CIRCLE > NAME=lefteye EXPRESSION=surprised RADIUS=1.25 X=-2 Y=2 Z=2/} {CIRCLE > NAME=righteye EXPRESSION=surprised RADIUS=1.25 X=2 Y=2 Z=2/} {CIRCLE > NAME=monocle EXPRESSION=surprised RADIUS=1.5 X=2 Y=0 Z=2/} {CIRCLE > NAME=mouth EXPRESSION=surprised RADIUS=0.5 X=0 Y=-2 Z=2/} etc. > {/PROTOTYPE} Right. My "aspects" and "variants" do a lot of this expression stuff. Ideally I'd like the Toon-o-Matic to be able to take a good stab at expressions all by itself, far, far in the future. > Anyway, you probably have your own plans for Toon-o-Matic development, so > I'll shut up now. No, I like to talk shop. Everybody else just looks at Toonbots. But it really is the Toon-o-Matic that I'm focussed on. > PS. I think I still like "Knight-Artificer of Pixels" for my > title. So mote it be. You don't need to *justify* Jihad titles. You just *claim* one. Napoleon, of course, works hard to justify hers... > PPS. Any instructions on how to get newlines, emphasis, or active links in > a forum message? Tim. HAHAHAHAHA. You ask me to edit it by hand. This is old, old software we're using here. All expense has been spared. (Yes, I know I could set up something newer.)

Napoleon Mon Jun 4 21:33:10 2001 Re: character rendering > {CIRCLE > NAME=monocle EXPRESSION=surprised RADIUS=1.5 X=2 Y=0 Z=2/} I'm amused at the idea of a monocle looking surprised.

Michael Mon Jun 4 22:25:22 2001 Re: character rendering > I'm amused at the idea of a monocle looking surprised. In context, the monocle *does* look surprised. Out of context, it would just be big.

Michael Mon Jun 4 22:26:59 2001 Re: character rendering > Then instantiation can handle aspect changes for profile, back view, 3/4 > left or right views and so forth. The only problem with this -- and I've considered it -- is that two-dimensional cartoons *aren't* just projections of three-dimensional objects, but rather have a drawing semantics of their very own. It's all very tricky.

gopher Fri Jun 1 19:18:28 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > pointless analysis. This probably isn't quite as bad as blantantly trying to increase your post count by complaining about your post count.

Brother Emsworth Sun Jun 3 23:22:10 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > This probably isn't quite as bad as blantantly trying to increase your > post count by complaining about your post count. Welcome back, gopher! We missed our favorite sacerdotal rodent considerably.

Michael Tue May 29 00:41:40 2001 Re: HOLY ME! > ARRGGGHHH!!! WHY DID I MISS TOONBOTS FOR A LONG OLD TIME?!?! WHY!!!???!!! > I BLAME THE WOLVERINES!!!!! Y'know, I kinda wondered how you'd like that. I'm not sure where the phrase "Holy Joe" came from, exactly...